With your MEC's strategy you will be "hopeing" for a long time with nothing to show for it. You want to know how I know, just ask me or any other Pinnacle pilot.

You are like talking to a rock!!! Think of this, how would it have looked if over 5 years ago Pinnacle pilots started picketing after negotiating for just 70 days because people told them management was a tough bunch of liars? That's what your asking us to do. We get that you guys have been through a lot, and I don't want to go through what you guys did, but these are new JCBA negotiations and we have to let this play out. If they show their true colors to all three MECs, as many predict will happen the $h!t will hit the fan at that time

From my understanding from the negotiators, TA1 isn't even coming into play. The starting points for negotiations were XJ's current contract, what was already agreed to in TA2 and what was agreed to on the Colgan side. The company has already tried to back out of things that were agreed to in TA2 already as well as existing things in the XJ contract.

The biggest complaint we keep hearing is we're on our own and National doesn't support us. We bring up other airlines such as ASA, FedEx, Delta, CAL, XJT, all other ALPA carriers walking the picket line with us....and we get told it doesn't count. Which is it?

No different than the 2-3 week stints were there were "intense negotiations" during the fall and summer. We had "get r done" deadlines from the company, then, too. Each ended in a "Significant progress was made, but unfortunately we were not able to come to an agreement" e-mails. I'd say it's about as close to Groundhog Day now as it can get. Sections open when negotiations kicked off again for us in March this year: Section 1, Section 3, Section 7, Section 25, Section 27, definitions and general (don't remember those section numbers). So, last week we started with.....well, almost those same sections, but toss in Section 11 as well. Scope was TAed for 9E in May, and no sections were TAed after that, but "significant progress was made" each time we met with the company. Fast forward to then end of June (after multiple week long negotiation sessions), and we still have those same sections open. I'm just not overly optimistic of seeing anything closed by the end of the week. The word on the street here is DS is supposedly gonna be present at the negotiations next week, and that gives the feeling that next week is the finale. I hope I eat my words on Fri night (or Saturday or even Sunday if they take it that far).

Edit: Upon re-reading the process agreement, the company CANNOT deny leave for the negotiators as they did on previous occasions in our Section 6. The agreement is pretty specific on that. So, at least that's a positive change.

There were some meetings without the NMB that CLOSELY resembled what we've got going on now. The NMB was called in when the company started digging in their heels. The company continued to dig in their heels even with the NMB, and we were put on ice.

Because there are no more official deadlines. Not that the official ones really mattered anyway. We're already a month past the original "drop dead" deadline as it is.

For all you 9E guys up in arms, where were you the last three years and what have you done? I have been at the airlines for over three years now and you have had one picketing event in three years before last friday. Do you ever wonder why your negotiations are such a failure? If you were a couple years into negotiations and nothing was coming from it, I might feel bad for you. But 5+ years and two TAs later and nothing to show for it, that is pretty poor. Blame it on whoever you want.......it is your own fault.

There was never a "drop dead" deadline. Read the process agreement.

My guess? XJ guys would have been out there supporting us in MSP and DTW at least. Informational picketing isn't out of the question from the time the contract becomes ammendable. Now, it doesn't make sense to stand outside with a sign that says "Fair contract now!!!" when you're working under a current, mutually agreed upon contract unless there are concessions being asked for. Once said contract becomes "ammendable," then it's no unheard of for informational picketing to start. Continental pilots were picketing in June to bring awareness to a fair contract for all pilots, and they hadn't even got a transition agreement in place yet. We've had one of those since Sept 1st. I didn't see the United MEC saying "Wait....hold one. Management might play nice." They joined them, along with other ALPA airlines. Here ya go:

ALPA Channel Player > June 9, 2010 - Continental pilots rally to tell management: We are the key to a successful Continental-United merger

So, it's a "rally," but the intent is the same.

One TA, not two. But you're correct on the other counts. It's a heated topic why there were so few picketing events, and I agree with you there.

Nov 15th reads like one in the agreement, but I guess you're okay with going all the way until April of 2011 (MEC meeting mentioned in the agreement), huh? The catch phrase is "unless the parties otherwise agree in writing," which is what happened.

Now, if you look at company circulated memos from the higher-ups, it absolutely seems like Nov 15th is a "drop dead" date for them. Those come from Treanry, Shockey and Muhs. Not sure what was said on the Mesaba said, but they made pretty much all employees, shareholders and investors pretty certain that 45 days was it. I think most of us were and are fine with extending that deadline a bit....but how much is too much?

Again, it took you 5 years to get where we are right now AND there are things in this JCBA that are better then what you were asking for for TA2. I call that progress.

Well them trying isn't a surprise. It's there job to not succeed and I think the JNC has done a good job of preventing their success so far.

I haven't been one of those complaining about the national support. I don't really think that's a rational debate. If they didn't want it to happen i'm sure they would have intervened. There are way bigger things on the table then wondering if national supported the walk such as trying to focus all this emotion and infighting toward a positive result that doesn't have the pilot groups hating eachother.


I hope you eat your words too ;) I don't know if DS being there is going to help or hinder things though.
We are still light years ahead of the timeline it took you guys to get where we are now. I just dont think informational picketing is worth much of anything and the timing of it wasn't the best. When you are so deeply involved in something you have emotions that blur what is really going on. It's like jet fans thinking they were going to score a touchdown the last two weeks :o I think the emotions of 9E are getting in the way of Unity amongst the 3 groups.


Not quite a month just yet but deadlines have only served to get the pilot groups heated. I dont' really think anyone thought that 45 days was really going to be possible and PNCL shouldn't have started with it.

XJ supporting you 5 years ago is akin to cal and xjt supporting you now. I'm sure they would have but had they been involved then and decided it wasn't the right thing to do then they would have a very valid point.

It really depends on what you're looking at, though. We had 100% cancellation pay in TA2 done. It's a sticking point in negotiations right now, though. However, we were still working on a 4 hour min day, which has apparently been agreed upon in the JCBA.

Because we're building on a negotiation that (so far) is nearly 6 years in the making, a Colgan negotiation that is a couple of years in the making and an XJ contract that was signed in 2004 then beat to death in bankruptcy with snapbacks coming in at the beginning of this month. Everyone keeps saying "It's a whole new ball game," but then they'll turn around and say "It's moving faster than your negotiations." If it truly IS a new game, you can't compare the two. Personally, I don't see it as much different (but then again I see it as a management stalling tactic because I've lost all confidence in said management).

I think it would be fair to say that it started with the 9E guys, then the emotions from all three carriers are getting in the way. 9E is bitter, angry and frustrated, XJ is content and going along with what their MEC says and Colgan seems to be along for the ride. It's the cultural issues between the three rearing their ugly heads.

I'm still of the opinion a "neutral" endorsement from the XJ and 9L MECs would have been sufficient. Instead we're gonna have to work through the bad blood this is causing. Some of it is the 9E group's fault, but it's starting to spiral out of control.

It never should have came down to an endorsement or not. It should have been discussed behind the scenes and sorted out then. If it was determined that 9E could go and walk on there own with a neutral stance by XJ/9L then fine but that wasn't what happened. You have a now segragated pilot group which never should have been allowed to happen.