This is the reason why LOTS of pinnacle pilots have a problem with xj pilots. This typical condescending attitude has got to stop. MESABA was bought by PINNACLE, not the other way around. I know it makes a lot of the mesaba pilots mad but that's the way it is. The mesaba ship was sinking AGAIN and pinnacle came in and made the purchase. Luckily the furloughed fo's I have had the pleasure to fly with see that and are thankfull that pinnacle hired them on when they didnt have to offer them anyrhing. I don't trust the mesaba mec any further than i could throw them. If it had been the other way around i have no doubt the mesaba pilots would be waiving the loa THEY wrote in our face and tell us we should be gratefull they are offering us a three to one deal.

You are a pinnacle pilot. Deal with it and join us or get out of the way and let those willing to get on board do.

Thanks djrogs03!!! I have been trying to find this document on the ALPA website with no luck. My headache is over!

Let the reading begin!

Regards,
Laxrox43

What the...? That was uncalled for. You sound like you have an inferiority complex. Now that we all actually have some leverage you're gonna go and **** on the XJ guys?

There's a lot of guys like that. The NC and MECs need to be sure to come to a quality TA that all can be happy with. Because 9E pilots (and assumedly 9L) are so hard up for new deal that they'll vote in anything.

Let's all pray that the JNC can hold their ground, make headway, and build off the Mesaba baseline.

I am sick of xj guys saying how scared they are to let colgan and pinnacle guys vote because we will take anything that we can. Try reading what he wrote before you read my response. He is pretty much saying you the colgan pilot will take any piece of crap they throw at you.

First off, the current XJ contract would NOT pass the 9E MEC. Not even with 1 vote. We do have TA2 sections that are good, XJ also has some good sections. The 9E group has shown it will throw trash back to the can. The point that I would like to make is simple- We have 3 groups creating 1 contract. The idea of "mesaba this" and "pinnacle that" is not even worth your breath because it's not even in play by those making decisions. We are all (all 3) working together for something that covers every pilot regardless of what uniform they currently wear. Is it easy? Heck NO! Can it be done? HECK YES! Every pilot under pinnacle CORP needs to understand that the more united we stand the more we can achieve. Period.

seems to me that nothing will get done if pilots from the 3 groups fight among themselves... I understand this is a message board, but if its like that in real life you will just make management happy and you will be stuck negotiating for another few years.

Im excited for the possibility of working for pinnacle... hopefully in the near future.. i would love to come in and vote for a decent contract. I havent been in the industry for long but I have been following things closely. Its kind of exciting in a way to hope to get on with a company just in the dawn of a new light. I hope there is a way new hires can possibly make a difference.:)

I agree with you. The way I see it is that the previous 9E TA was turned down by the pilots (good job) but it was only by a small percentage that it didn't pass (correct me if I'm wrong). Given that there were numerous people who actually DID vote in favor of it, I would expect it wouldn't take much to have the same people vote in favor of an XJ-status-quo TA.

I understand that it is terrible for the 9E pilots to have been working with a bad contract for so long and I seriously commend them all for not giving in easily. However, we're humans and I suspect impatience will get the best of some.

ha bored. If you knew I was going to go off like that then you instigated my rant! :) Here is the thing. If it was just you saying that then I wouldn't care. You and I have gone round and round about this stuff for a few years now and I would just blow it off if you were the only one saying it. However other mesaba pilots are saying the same thing. That is what is getting to me. And its not being overly sensitive. Its sticking up for the pilots who gave up ALOT by negotiating for over 5 years and then voting down a TA so we could do better. I personally have seen more than $25,000 dollars disappear since we voted down that TA almost 1 year ago (and $15,000) of that I will never get back. The 52% of us that voted no took a huge gamble in sending it back to the company. We had no idea what the outcome was going to be. Little did we know that the NMB would put us on ice. We had no idea that pinnacle was going to buy another airline. We didn't know the path the no vote was going to take us but we made that choice. A little respect for those that stood up would do nicely.

And you are also misinterpreting what I said. I never once said pinnacle "saved" mesaba. I said that pinnacle saw a business opportunity and took it. They do not care about the mesaba pilots or people. They care about the business. Luckily however for the mesaba guys our MEC that you don't trust went to the company and got a deal worked out that would allow people that didn't have a job to go to to come over to pinnacle and join our ranks while things are being worked out. And not only did the MEC you dont trust get that deal they worked it out so the pilots could keep their longevity for everything. So instead of saying the pinnacle MEC needs to earn your respect how about showing them some for all they have done so far.

Like I said earlier, we will vote for anything right. Just like the TA that passed last year?? :rolleyes:

How can you say that when almost half of the pilots at 9E voted TA1 in, when it was 12.5% below what XJ's current contract is?

Bored...I would hope that the 10+ years that you have known me would count for something.

I'm not sure what you are looking for as further proof that the joint MECs intentions are pure. Don't undervalue the importance and difficulty of whats already been accomplished. Only through close coordinated action have the three MECs been able to get us in a position where we are even able to talk about a joint contract and singular representation that will rid us of the age old PCL/MSA whipsaw. Don't forget that management wanted nothing to do with this originally.

The joint contract poses some unique challenges. The current status PCL TA and MSA contract are fairly dissimilar in their makeup. The weak areas of the MSA book are generally the strong areas of PCL and vise versa. Neither of the agreements on their own would have ratified both the PCL or MSA MECs. So far, negotiations are proceeding well with the best practices of both agreements being utilized for the combined agreement.



The XJ contract was not 12.5% higher than PCL TA1. Whoever told you that had their head way up their a$$. At the time, XJ captains were probably about a wash with PCL CAs but XJ FOs were way behind PCL FOs in terms of income.

Here's a good, non-polarizing question :D

Mesaba guys/gals.... when do your bid packs come out, when does your bid open, and when do you see your line?

At Pinnacle we are told that we don't get the schedule from Delta until sometime the month prior to doing it, and we open our PBS bidding on the 15th of the month prior, close it at noon on the 20th, and see the results earliest 24 hours later contractually.

I really think that sucks.

Just stop the bickering and get the facts before this continues. In order for any kind of "majority" as you have alluded to you need to understand how this process works. Assuming there is a TA for a JCBA reached each respective MEC will vote (individually) for the TA. If it doesn't pass ANY of the 3 (must have 3/3 in favor) the TA is essentially voted DOWN at the MEC level. This will ensure that no TA goes out for ratification by the pilot group where this "scenario" of majority in numbers cannot occur.

We get the packet on the second Thursday of the month, bid closes the following Monday at 7am Central. Lines posted by Friday at 5pm.

What really sucks is PBS in general.

This is where I am still a little fuzzy about details. The way this sounds, each MEC has to vote yes? So it isn't a combined vote of all reps with the majority winning?

Next question. When we finally see a TA make it to the pilot groups, does each pilot group vote individually? I have been confused on whether each group has to vote it in or if we total all the votes and 50% had to say yes?

Just for clarification, you are currently DOS+4? Is that correct?

Well, if none of the reps would vote in favor it would never pass... It's not just money- there are serious language gaps. Look at the 9E TA at almost 400 pages, XJ's is around 100 I believe. No matter how you want to argue it, it's water under the bridge as we are working on the JCBA.

I have to be honest, I haven't seen your guys TA, just heard about some of the things that weren't in it from other threads on APC. Maybe one could make it available, like I have made the XJ contract available...by the way the XJ contract is 524 pages, lots o readin...

Current Mesaba Contract
 

For those pinnacle and colgan pilots who have yet to read/unaware of the current mesaba contract...here are a few of the highlights and lowlights currently(Btw...i am not satesfied one bit with our current contract and want much more than is listed here)

Section 1 - Lots of scope protections...actually fairly good section 1 for a regional pilot group

section 3 - you will have to take a look at the pay for yourself...just keep in mind this though...Mesaba has a 4% raise coming on Dec 1 of this year 2010.
When those new pay rates go into effect...Fo's (all fo's payed the same rate whether on prop or jet) will start at 25.97, 31.14, 34.19....year7-8 is 41.90 tops. Ca's for a 200 start at 61.14 yr 1....yr 2 62.98,64.88....year 17-18 is 101.06 tops. Ca's for a 900 start at 65.48,67.46,69.48....year 17-18 is 104.24 tops. Bottom line....FO pay is terrible(for a lot of reasons in the past, but it is just not good), Ca pay is better but still needs to be increased.

I only hope that pilots of all 3 groups realize that the company is looking at paying us based on mesaba's 'current' rates which are only a couple of months from receiving a 4% pay increase. This is one reason the company wants this done so quickly. Just giving you a heads up.

other section 3 stuff....block or better, min pay per day is 4 hrs, cdo pay is min of 4 hrs, taxi repositions = 12 min pay, trip guarentee pay, monthly guarentee pay is at 75 hrs for rsv and line holders, Rsv's only get paid higher than 75 if you credit over 75, get junior manned, or pick up ot; all of which goes on top of 75. drug test pay is 30 mintues of pay, customs pay is 18 min of pay, premium pay is for OT and junior manning which is 1.5X your pay rate. premium pay can be taken away by payroll if you call in sick at anytime within the same bid period you received premium pay for picking up OT.


Other contract stuff that I am sick of catagorizing by section....

-only 50% pay of deadheads
-per diem is currently at 1.55 BUT on Dec 1st we will be at 1.65 (all very very low)
-rsv's will not be called once you hit 70 hrs of credit, they will only call you if there are no other pilots available.
-dec 31st of each year all pilots receive 235 dollar checks (supposed to be used for uniforms)(effective dec 31st 2010)
-training hotel buyout options...if you don't use a hotel provided by training, you can get paid 50% of what the company pays
-min day pay is 4 hrs(so for the most part, even if you pick up a trip for ot that is only worth 2 hrs of flying or credit, you will get paid 6 hrs on top of your gaurentee.) (4 hr min day pay * 1.5 premium factor = 6 hrs pay)
-lots of cdo scheduling provisions (some are good, and some hurt you)
-11 days min days off a month(can go to 10 if you pick up ot, but NEVER less than 10 even if you want to so you can pick up a trip)
-new hires receive their own hotel room (no dual occupancy rooms)
-new hires uniforms are paid 50% by company
-1 week vacation can be used as 5 individual pvd's
-lots of stuff regarding moving expenses paid for when displaced involuntarily.
-company only pays for parking in current pilot domiciles, even if where you live is cheaper
-no duty/trip rigs....but we do have the min day pay
-sick bank accrues at 2.5 hrs a month
-we have pbs and it sucks
-we have no automated trip trade
-we have no way to determine rsv coverage per day...so scheduling could do whatever they want and most of the time get away with it.

if you want to know more, i think someone posted a link to mesaba's contract...just thought this would pull out some of the most often asked about areas...just ask if you have more questions.

One thing I did want to point out though was how i would not be surprised if one of the reason's this company wants a contract so fast(before dec 1st of this year) is b.c. of mesaba's 4% raise which is coming this dec 1st. What a great way to get around it...negotiate rates before the 4%raise. same goes for our uniform pay and per diem.

Don't *think* this section will see much of an improvement.... since a contract is more than just pay.... it's work rules etc...

That's... just.... wrong.... bold portion is unacceptable.

Well... if the contract can include a payrate "+ 4% snapback inclusive of all pilots" I would be semi-thrilled.

I don't really think anyone knows what is motivating the company. This could be among one of the motivations to get something hammered out. However for them to think our Union is so stupid that if they sign a contract in November verses January it will save Pinnacle Incorporated a 4% raise for pilots, I hope they are giving us a little more credit. If Pinnacle is that simple minded then I would be feeling good about these negotiations.

We would like to look at the 9E TA but some one needs to make it available.


Also, no one at XJ really thinks they are better than their counterparts at 9E. Whoever is on here talking about 9E bought XJ and that they saved us can go shove it. If you want to get the best contract for all, that is not they way to go about it. If XJ guys really wanted to be pruicks, we wouldn't negotiate at all and continue to make more than any of 9E and Colgan. We can drag this out as long as possible and neither Colgan or 9E would get a TA either.

The more we fight amongst ourselves, the worse contract we are going to have. XJ has a lot of pride and support for our MEC. Just look at the concessionary deal we have compared to the 9E current contract and the Colgan current practices.

Nope, can't have everything but I am a guaranteed HELL NO vote without getting build up reserve pay style restored. I don't appreciate working for free.

All that would do is continue to shrink the mesaba pilot group. They will still park the Saab's and mesaba pilots would continue to lose their jobs. Don't act like you are doing the 9e pilots a favor. We are in this together. We arent helping you and you aren't helping us. Its one pilot group now. The sooner all three pilot groups realize this the sooner we can wrap this up and carry on.

Think that was the point he was trying to make, this bickering between groups will not help any of of us. Like you said we are ONE pilot group now. :cool:

Here is a list of some possible contract increases that Mesaba pilots have been looking to secure....


-Duty/Trip Rigs
-Min 12 Days off
-build up lines as they were when we line bid
-100% Deadhead pay
-significant perdiem increases...up to 1.90 or 2.00
-Increases above our slated dec 1st 2010 pay rates
-Restructured FO pay bands (This would be considered in the pay increases above)
-locked in premium pay(so that calling in sick in same month, won't wipe out your premium pay)
-No PM ready rsv on last day
-no more than 5 hrs on ready rsv (all of which is paid at full credit)
-A more transparent rerserve and staffing model(able to see rsv coverage, who is on rsv, how many below/above,who is flying on rsv so we can see their trip/pattern....etc
-auto trip trade with opentime and pilots
-either crew meals or gaurenteed meals at hotels in morning following an overnight
-At the end date of the contract, if no new contract is in place, a minimun of 1.5 to 2% pay increase every year, along with a .05 cent pay bump on perdiem
-Increase sick time accrual
-leg by leg gaurentee instead of trip gaurentee

I am not saying we will/are seeking ALL of these, this is simply a list of areas that Mesaba pilots have expressed interest in improving. Feel free to add more, all I did was copy paste what some others have written. Perhaps some colgan and pinnacle pilots can chime in on if some of what is listed above is already in your contract or a previous proposed TA.

Two-year-olds are simple minded too. Ever try to negotiate with one of them?

Out of curiosity, what qualifies you to speak for the former mesaba pilots? If you really expect all of this you should probably sit down, have a beer, and schedule and appointment with a therapist/substance abuse counselor.

How about a list like this...
Industry average plus $1 pay
Trip/duty rigs & min day
Trip guarantee
100 % cancel and deadhead pay
Reasonable healthcare
401k matching at least 4% starting
150% pickups from open time
A commuter clause in the contract not the fom (from xj)
Limitations/hard pay for ready reserve
Long call/ short call hotel (this will be very important with new rest rules)

This is off the top of my head but its a good starting point for ME personally.

I am not speaking for ?former? mesaba pilots. Qualified? What are you talking about? Just read the entire post again. I did not say that i expect all this...again refer to the post. I just said that these are all things that some mesaba pilots have mentioned(even prior to july 1st) that they would like to improve. The only reason I made the posts was so that mesaba, pinnacle, and colgan pilots can get on board, if they are not already, with some examples of contract areas that we can improve. That is all.

Submit your ideas to the union, we are all qualified to suggest contract improvements to our respective MEC's during negotiations. Hopefully we attain as many improvements as we can.

Look, I don't mean to be condescending or rude, but I think many xj'ers are in for a suprise when they begin to deal with our (pinnacle) management. Your current contract will not be nearly as nice once it is transferred to pinnacle inc, you may not understand this now, but if this jcba deal doesn't work out, you will. I really hope that this all goes as planned, but I have seen this type of optimism before and it lead to exactly nothing.

First it was we need to attract more pilots mgmt wants a ta.

Then it was management wants to make a deal on a ta before the nw/dl merger; dl doesn't want negotiations.

Then it was the nmb will have to relase us soon and mgmt is feeling the pressure.

Then we get $hit ta 1 because the neg. Committee drops the ball, doesn't listen to the divided mec, divided pilot group; plus mec agrees to w2 method for bonus distribution so it fails.

Now when we have the chance to give it to the company during a very hard summer and we come out and pick up thousands of hours of open time to get them through.

People keep saying that the company wants to negotiate so they can integrate and save all this cash. I say bull, just because they act like they want to come to the table doesnt mean a damn thing. I predict this will be much harder than we all expect. We will have to band together and show a hell of a lot more unity than we (9e) has mustered thus far.

I look forward to working with you colgan and mesaba fellas,I'm just trying to help paint a picture of the fight you guys are walking into. Like I said before, its gonna get ugly.

Oh it's gonna be ugly alright...i agree....and by no means am I an optimist in this industry...I just don't see how anything will be done in 45 days or whatever it was they said.

I think that the ability to see a list of reserves for the day is vital to any and all people on reserve. Without this they are completely at the mercy of scheduling who can disregard the contract at will, with no risk of the pilots finding out. I know Mesaba and Colgan don't have this (not sure about Pinnacle) but they should, what's the point of the reservists having a contract without anyone being able to see it is enforced?

At my previous regional I spent 18 months on reserve and without this list would have been screwed more times by scheduling than I care to remember.

Just one of many vital contract enhancements, but one i felt had been mostly glossed over.

They probably will, but that is the sacrifice to be made.

Oh wait, but they cannot furlough any XJ pilots for at least a year.....its in our contract. I spoke with a union guy and the clock on that 12 months hasn't even started yet. No one from XJ will be laid off for awhile.

RE: the bold point.... Pinnacle schedulers and management do not consider reserve pilots to be anywhere near the same class or category as lineholders. Consider your contract violated almost immediately. But remember.... fly now, grieve later.

You're an ALPA member....it's available on the ALPA site. Go to the e-Library, Economics tab. ;)





Edit: didn't mean to sound like a jerk (if it came off that way); merely pointing out the information is readily available online.
Double Edit: Nevermind, I see someone else posted the info already....guess my info is still good for future use though.

Hey no worries... I've been running a crazy sched this month and felt discombobulated... asking for it simply allowed me to stop cognitive thinking required to remember such info...

Pinnacle
 

Does pinnalce do a credit check as part of their background check?