Why they do that? a Q&A with NY approach.
 

Due to the number of PM's with questions that my other thread generated, I feel this would be a good opportunity to give any pilots interested in the "why they do that? about any of the local procedures involving NY Approach.

Although my area of expertise is the EWR sector, feel free to ask anything involving any of our other areas (if I don't know the answer I'll grab one of my colleagues from the pertinent areas to get the answer).

We have all heard of "penalty" vectors.

Is this an urban legend or if a pilot is excessively rude or demeaning or demanding or non compliant or all of the above will a pilot be denied something just because you are sick of them or given an off route vector or slowed down or the like?

I would imagine no in your airspace just since there is no where to put them but ive heard some real winners on the radio before and always wondered if ATC has a way to retaliate.

Of course you would NEVER do this but have you heard of this ever being done before?

Why when we call for a pushback and have already coordinated with clearance due delays consistently pop up on the taxi out to any destination ? We're all trying to save fuel and these delays are too often and lack any planning or safeguards...

So for direct or higher we should ask for "Ajax"?

Why instead of more ground delays or in flight speed restrictions, when we get to within 20 miles of EWR, approach have us zig zag for about 30 minutes for spacing before we can actually set up for the final approach, even in perfect weather.

Is it true that under "normal" weather type days, like low winds, due to EWR's runway configuration, they pretty much determine what arrival/departure flow of both LGA and JFK?

Also, does LGA have the smallest chunk of airspace for the approach controllers to work with? I know, it's the "smallest" of the NY airports. But the 2 years I was based there, it was still pretty busy. Especially before the March 01 "slottery".

Any chance you know someone from CLT who can come on here and answer some questions?

Yes, it does happen. if you get under a controller's skin there are many ways to "retaliate", although its not something that happens all the time. You really have to **** somebody off big time in order for them to do something like that.

We have very "subbtle" ways of changing the sequence. Also..denying any shortcuts, or extending a downwind are others. Again, not something that happens too often.

This is my online name, and nobody would recognize it there except....me. :)

There are too many variables with this. WX at your destination, or on any segment in between can cause delays to pop up. Also traffic volume may increase in a particular area that affects your proposed route, and they may put up a temporary ground stop for that area. This is very hard to predict exactly.

We are trying to maximize the amount of traffic we can handle. Ground stops can only acomplish so much. We do slow you down, but even then that is often not enough. there is also many arrival fixes feeding us, and we have to string you all into one big conga line. If you were all coming from the same direction, you wouldn't be getting zig zagged as much.

Just to expand a little more on this. If traffic volume is at a point where you're getting zig zagged all over New Jersey, chances are...we're about to go in a hold, if we aren't holding behind you already. We'll zig zag some to accomodate as many aircraft in our airspace as we can safely manage, but once those limites get tested, we don't hesitate to go in a hold. Question for you is...do you rather spend 10 to 15 minutes in a holding pattern or zig zagging over NJ? which one do you think will get you to land faster? I ask myself this many times when I have to vector somebody off the PHLBO to the east to make room for one or 2 extra PENNS arrivals. We are always trying to favor the arrival fix that has the MOST inbounds, so as to minimize the impact a hold will have.

LGA does indeed have the smallest chunk of airspace, as they're sandwiched in between EWR and JFK's airspace.

Its the other way around. EWR doesnt determine what LGA or JFK do, but JFK does determine what LGA does.

no...srry, I don't have any current contacts in CLT, but I'll see what I can do to get one to post here.

why cant they consistently land two runways in ewr?

why does ewr ALWAYS get the worst of the delays?

Nice, thanks for that information.

Are you working tomorrow? Listen for CJC3263 around 1500, ive got a tight commute and could use the help!

what a great thread-long overdue. perhaps you can continue to post some of the things that we pilots inadvertantly do, that inevitably drive you guys and gals crazy?

How about

"See you next time" ???

any problems with me saying that??

Can we bulldoze all 3 airports... heck add TEB too. all 4 airports into the ocean and rebuild one functional DFW/DAL style layout for everyone in the area???

Honestly I'd rather hold off boarding another 45 minutes at Chicago and when I get to EWR, I'd like to go straight in due to time served. It's a lot of fuel wasted everyday zig zagging or holding.

Yeah, can someone get the 'Auctioneer' up in here to ramble off some answers real quick about the 'Queen? It's always enjoyable coming into CLT when he's on the air. :D

Does your company offer you a bonus for saving fuel and reducing block time? I don't mean to be wasteful, but I'm also not gonna break my back and risk an EDCT just to save myself from having to board. Pushing makes sense for everyone involved, unless its going to be hours upon hours.

And for my question: I guess I get most confused by a slowdown and a shortcut, or a maintain 310 and a 30 degree vector for spacing. These two situations seem counterproductive. What would the purpose of either of these be?

I'm paid by the minute...that's just bonus to me.

+1! He consistantly cracks me up.

I'm at a different TRACON (not NY), but I can answer this one -- usually it's done to make space *now* . . . say I need 5 miles in-trail, but I only have 3. Turn the back guy 40 degrees to the left, then back in line when I have the 5 miles I need.

If I were to simply slow the back guy, I'd have to speed him back up to maintain that 5 miles -- otherwise it would increase to 6 or 7 . . . . I once slowed SWA to 170, then tried to pick him back up to 200 -- he did it, but he sounded pretty ****ed about it.

You did WHAT?!

You need to read your manual again!

"Rule #1: Never slow down SWA"

Geeze..

The parallels are too close to allow for simultaneous IFR landings. Even when we run a visual to 4L while running 4R it means departures are getting backed up, so we can only do that for so long.

Landing on Rwy 11 can only be done when its VFR (tower needs to provide visual with the 22L/4R traffic). Another issue is that the rwy 11 localizer goes right through the ILS6 localizer for TEB arrivals (When we land 4R at EWR TEB has to land rwy6), and if we're landing 22L the RWY11 localizer goes right in front of the departure end of MMU rwy 23, so we have to delay MMU departures, sometimes for up to an hour (and boy, do they get ****ed off there), or stagger TEB arrivals to run 11's. Either case....can't land more than 1 rwy in EWR consistently without delaying EWR departures,or TEB arrivals, or MMU departures. You can thank our flustercluck airspace for that.

I am working today from 1500 to 2300 local. Not sure if I'll get there in time. I'll see what I can do. :)

Don't see why that would be a problem. :)

My colleague summed it up nicely. A lot of the zig zagging is done to make small space adjustments now. Ground delays can only acomplish so much because it its nearly impossible to gauge all the different small factors that affect the takeoff time of each individual aircraft. You have to account for aircraft performance, pilot reaction time, company policies, etc. You will never ever get a perfectly spaced sequence just out of gate holds and ground delays. Zig zag in the air, as much as you hate it (we're not fond of it either) its a necessary evil for now. Maybe when the new technology arrives that lets all aircraft talk to each other and control your speeds in the air in unison, maybe it'll be possible.

You guys do an awesome job. I spent some time at Jetlink, & am with DAL now. You guys move tons of metal even with WX, & make it look easy. And as busy as you guys/gals get you're always some of the most pleasant controllers out there. Wish I could say the same for your Washington Center folk. They seem cranky a lot.

I flew the DC9 with NWA, & it was always fun leaving EWR & getting cleared to an intersection(GREKI I think) and having to respond 'Well I love to do that for you Sir, but we are a /Antique. ;)

Response was usually a chuckle followed by 'Fly heading XXX Direct CFB when able'. :D

hehe good ol' DC9's. Good to hear you're moving up. There are a few of the local regional pilots that I've stayed in touch over the years, and its always awesome when one of them suddenly checks in flying a wide body for a major after many years of flying the regionals. Its a rite of passage that I'm sure all of you can relate.

No WB for me yet, but I am on the A320 so I can at least go direct to an intersection for ya now. ;) :D

right on!

Well, off to work I go. Stay safe!

Vector to get the miles, assign speeds to maintain it.

No thats because on holidays like News Years for example when CAL or AAL sends a case of Korbel to N90... Pinnacle sends Champagne to themselves for all the money they have saved by paying us dirt for a year.
That = CAL091 proceed direct EWR... Colagn4456 fly heading 180 Ill get back to you in an hour

LGA has 2 runways and can handle arrivals on one and departures on the other.

JFK has 4 runways and can handle arrivals on one and departures on the other.

So my question - Why does JFK always have 2 idle runways?

Although I work in EWR, my understanding of this is that JFK can only land simultaneous side by side IRF arrivals on the 31's, but because the 31's are not that far apart and that requires the 2 final monitor positions to be staffed at the Tracon, as well as extra staffing on the tower. They can run staggered 31's, as well as staggered 22's, but these require vfr wx so visual separation can be used, and thus are very complex operations due to the extra heavy chatter needed (controller has to first call traffic to each arrival, wait for the "we have it in sight" reply, then issue the "maintain visual separation, follow that traffic blah blah blah), while that is normal verbiage for 1 runway operation running visuals, when you double the traffic in a congested airport like this, it becomes almost too much to handle by one controller, and you can't split that into 2 finals due to the close proximity of the finals.

The difference between the NY airports and places like DFW, or ATL to name but 2 examples is that in those places the parallels are WAY farther apart, and they can legally run side by side operations without the need to have final monitors, or use visual separation, and usually involve different controllers working different finals with plenty of room to operate within their own airspace.

Hmmm... I could be wrong but I don't think 9L and 8R are 3 miles apart?

I'm confused..

ATL has PRM, JFK does not

Is there a "priority" list for when the weather goes down? i.e. international arrivals have priority, followed by mainline, regionals, etc?