MES/CJC/PCL TA Summary
 

DEETS:

2010-12-20_PCL-MSA-CJC_JCBA_Tenative_Agreement_Summary__FINAL_.pdf

After reviewing it and comparing it with the only CBA I worked under (ARW 2003), a few thoughts from a "disinterested" third party:

1. Jet CA rates look decent, but Jet FO payrates are less than 60% CA rates...why?
2. Split Saab payrates. I understand why this is, but its still quite divisive IMO.
3. Q400 rates less than CRJ-200? Really? This seems short-sighted to me.
4. No trip/duty rigs?
5. Only 75% DH pay?
6. Commuter policy sucks - disciplined for more than 2 uses?
7. Only 11 days off?
8. Health insurance is less expensive & a better option than what's offered at my current employer

I worked for Pinnacle my vote would be HELL YES, if Mesaba it'd probably be an shrugging YES, and if I worked for Colgan I'd probably hold my nose on the payrate issue and vote YES because the "good" outweighs the "bad". That said, I'd be willing to bet over the life of this agreement many CR2s go away and many more Q400s are added...potentially leading to a loss of income for crewmembers while operating a more efficient, higher-margin aircraft for the company.

All that said, its your sandbox...but your negotiators had a VERY difficult job given the condition of each airline's contract & pilot group and this, to me, looks like a viable (if nowhere close to "industry leading") joint contract solution.

The Q400 rates are stepped so that they do equal -200 rates by year 5. They are better than horizon by year 3.

Trip/duty will be a nonfactor after the government steps in.

The commuter policy was not explained very well at all in this summary, everyone needs to bring this up at the roadshow to get the full picture. The way it was explained to me was after 2 you sit with the panel, 2 management 2 ALPA, and they look at your specific situation, if you follow their recommendation you can't get in trouble.

Trip and duty RIGS, not trip and duty TIMES.

You're right, I don't know what I was thinking, up too late I think.

I think the feeling was that neither side could begin to discuss Trip/Duty rigs since everything is changing with the FAA duty times. I do know they have the right to revisit the CBA once it is passed to address new duty rules down the road.

A duty rig will effectively kill highspeeds as we know them because of the higher cost. That means more regular lines will have those really short RR overnights or the really long crew staging overnights throughout the month. While I think that most good contracts have duty rigs, I would sacrifice them first because of the effect it will have on the operation and our schedules.

^^^^exactly rigs aren't right for every airline or every operation at every airport. Depends on the schedule Daddy Delta gives us.

For those at 9E or XJ -

Regarding extensions and the 3 hour limit, would most extensions automatically be JA's because of the stage lengths the jet operates on? Or does the 200 do some trips that you could be conceivably extended but not JA'd?

you cane be extended with out JA. We have some 20 min flights with 25 min turns in the 200. I my 3 years at Mesaba i have been extended once because another FO was going to time out in his last leg so they switched us.

Depends on the base. If you're out of DTW, there are more shorter legs. I could see something like a MBS or LAN out and back being JUST under the 3 hour limit. MEM....well, likely it's gonna be over 3 hours, unless it's something like FSM. Most of our shorter out and backs like JAN and HSV have gone to either ASA or Comair. Out of ATL, I don't think we have a lot blocked to the point that they could get it under 3 hours. JFK, pretty sure you'll see nothing but JMs because of the inflated block times due to taxi lengths. Not sure about MSP. Haven't been up there in a while.

Regarding min day:

Stand ups or CDO's. Will they count each day as a min day? If you depart at 2130 and then hit the hotel for a few hours and leave again at 0600 will that be two days and 8 hours or just one because it was one duty period?

Reserve. Reserve pays 2 hours now at 9L, will it now pay 4?

No, CDO's do not pay 8 hours. Although, I don't know how they're credited (not sure if they qualify for the "min day" or not).

As for the reserve period, I do believe they will pay 4 hours.


I will get back to you on both items with definitive answers.

Thanks.

I doubt the CDOs will pay 4 hours for the out and another 4 for the back but just wondered how the wording would go to exclude that on the min day. Min day for 24 hours or min day for a duty period or how it would work.

We will talk about it, youve got my phone, email or ill see you around the crew room.

No no no, dont call and talk to your rep. It is much easier to speculate on a public forum that it is to get informed.

sarcasm

I spoke to my rep today at Colgan and he said he has received 0 calls. Seems that with everything I am reading you would have thought his phone would be blowing up

MEC president called me a few minutes after I posted something a few days ago to answer the question. Thats what I call service.

I think the MEC should know what I am thinking and call me to answer my questions. I cant be inconvenienced by dialing a phone.

reserve will pay 4 only if you are activated. so if you are on reserve and get a dh to somewhere worth 35min current book, you will be 4 hours.

Well played sarge, well played.

I would guess it'll be worded as "4 hour min per duty period." So, a CDO would count as one duty period.

4 hours for CDO because it's one duty period.

Are you sure about this? It says 4 hours min pay for any duty scheduled. Wouldn't reserve duty count as such?

I'm gonna say probably only if they use you until I read the contract language. Min days off for reserves are 11, so you'll never see more days off than that. Which means, in a 30 day month, you'll work 19 days. 19x4=76 hours of credit. 80 in a 31 day bid period. I'd laugh all the way to the bank if reserves were guaranteed to go over 75 hours a month, which is why I doubt it'll be written that way.

ask NH or BN. that was the way i understood it when explained. Reserve at home is not considered with this rule.

if it is similar to how mesaba runs min day currently, reserves do not receive it unless you receive a flying assignment or ready reserve.

Thanks for the clarification

Home reserve is NOT considered duty, simply it is not considered rest per Whitlow rule. That is how reserves have a defined usable duty day. But also since the loss of build up reserve with the bankruptcy don't get paid over guarantee in most cases.

This is something I need to get clarified at the road show. Assuming the contract says something like "The pilot will not exceed 14 hours scheduled including reserve duty" under the short call reserve section, that sounds to me like if I start home reserve at 7 am, then I'm done by 9 pm if they use me for something.

Yea. 14 hours period. That means if you are on RSV for 4 hours and they call you, you still have to be done in the 14 hour period. That can go out to 15 hours MAX, but that would have to be due to MX of WX. You could have just texted!

I disagree with this. Reserves start their duty at the contactable period per the contract as I read it. Rest can always be modified (ie under the idea that it is not duty, they could use you as long as they wanted then just modify your rest.) That just isnt the case though.

Eh, true. I knew there was a call today, so I figured I'd just ask JA about it. Problem solved.

Now....about that transparency on the extensions/JMs...... :)

There will be some openings on a scheduling committee to oversee all of that. I have a feeling it will be made up of MEM guys that live in base so they can actually go to the SOC and work on it when there are issues. For the first time the company is granting access to the association to monitor the scheduling. I have personally found that when we have access to everything and have clear language that the company doesn't fight, but they will complain. It's a great stride in the right direction.

Rather than focus on the negatives, can someone post the positives of this TA?

Sold. :)


Honestly, for the first time for me, the list of negatives is SIGNIFICANTLY shorter than the list of positives. 4 hour min day, reserve escalation limits, 11 days off, and a few other kickers would have made my current month a LOT better than it is right now....

This TA is a joke, get what you deserve

Just curious, what's the doh for 200 and 900 captains at mesaba and pncl? I think we have some 08 guys upgrading on the Saab and Q on this end

Pncl..-200 mid 06, -900 mid/early 06.

Mesaba junior 200 is feb 05. 900 is apr 07. Saab is may 07

Will change significantly due to senior saab captains being displaced.

Alright, I'll bite "flame-daddy". ASA right?

Will someone from ASA please educate us poor peons on what your golden contract contains so that we can strive to be as high and mighty as the ones called "assey"?


Here I'll help you out:

Your payrates are better, not extremely better but better.

What else beyond that?

Better scope protections than this TA?

More than 11 days off a month? (not bragging just asking)

Block or better with leg by leg guarantees?

4 hour min day?

A whole host of scheduling provisions that force the company to staff accordingly and not use junior manning as a staffing model?

Pilots creating the pairings to be put into PBS?

Is your 401k matching that superior?

Health insurance cheaper and more coverage?


Please, please tell me what I need to be striving for since it's what you already have.