Because they were at the bottom of the XJ list, not this 3 headed monster we are about to have.

They are entitled to be merged fairly with the same criteria as everyone else, and that includes their original XJ DOH.

If Mesaba Pilots were given recall notice and did not return then they would be at the bottom (if they got hired). But that didn't occur. Thankfully PapaMike has no tangible ability to affect the integration of furlough pilots. His lack of contract knowledge would be the company's dream come true.

Is that even a coherent thought?

Bottom line is the XJ furloughees are going to be at the bottom of the list regardless(above the july 1 line in the sand). Whether or not they are stuck below the currently active guys or just blended in with them isn't going to amount to a whole lot of difference anyway. Just my opinion that if they had expectations to be at the bottom, then that's where they should be if they didn't take a position at 9E or 9L. I'm not advocating they go behind the guys hired after July 1.

Traditionally, though, where have furloughs fallen during a merged seniority list? If the furloughed XJ pilots were merged with their original DOH regardless of furlough status, it would be a change in how that's historically been handled.

Just because people have been screwed over in the past doesn't mean it's it's right to continue that way.

I want to post a graph of where people may fall in the new company, one for straight relative seniority and one for straight DOH, so people can see the extremes of where they may fall.

But I need seniority dates for Colgan pilots.

Can someone give me the hire dates (month and year) of the pilots at seniority numbers 46, 93, 185, 277, and 370?

I hope you know that either of those two options alone would completely misrepresent some very large groups in each list. The best method to screw each pilot equally would be some type of blend. That should be our goal, equal screwing.

Welcome to Pinnacle!

I believe it will be a blend of the 2 also, but the way it will be blended is being negotiated now.

I want to show both ends of the spectrum (relative and DOH), and people can see a range of where their seniority may be in a general sense.

I thought you were a colgan pilot. No?

Nope, I'm at XJ.

Alright, I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible.

Thanks to the Colgan guys that sent DOH info.


I took different %'s of each list and I'm showing how a pilot at a particular DOH would fair using the 2 different extremes of thought on seniority integration (percentage in your company now VS. DOH)

This is a generalized calculation and I had to make several assumptions:

- 9E pilots are calculated using their checkride date not DOH
- XJ furloughs are treated fairly
- 2804 pilots on merged list not including newhires

- I did the calculations at the 10%, 20%, 40%, 60%, and 80% position of each company to show a trend

- They are negotiating how they will integrate the lists now, but you will probably fall within the range of the 2 different methodologies after it is finished.

- use Interpolation

Just look at your particular airline and hire date to see where you fall on the 3000 pilot list for each method, either DOH or percentage.


Colgan

Hire Date -- DOH -- %method


06/2004 --- 867 --- 280

07/2005 --- 1151 --- 561

03/2007 --- 1525 --- 1122

11/2007 --- 2118 --- 1683

06/2008 --- 2507 --- 2243


Mesaba

Hire Date -- DOH -- %method


10/1995 --- 155 --- 280

03/1999 --- 306 --- 561

08/2004 --- 895 --- 1122

08/2007 --- 1953 --- 1683

01/2008 --- 2343 --- 2243


Pinnacle

Hire Date -- DOH -- %method


04/2000 --- 412 --- 280

10/2002 --- 639 --- 561

02/2005 --- 1044 --- 1122

08/2006 --- 1403 --- 1683

08/2007 --- 1932 --- 2243

I see some things that would upset a few people.

Dat there is some fuzzy math son!

Problem here is that 6/08 hires are holding Q CA positions at 9L and now you are projecting them to go to basically the bottom of a 3000 pilot list with only about 400 guys below them?

In all honesty thank you! I know what you were trying accomplish by trying to give everyone a rough idea of where they may stand in a few different scenarios, but those numbers are going to cause a slight "disturbance" in the pilot group.

Lets just be patient and wait for the SLI team to do their job and before we all kill each other.

Take it for what it's worth, it's just information.

And its not fuzzy math at all, I put everyone in DOH order for one list and calculated the percentiles of each individual at their company for the % based list, Elementary school stuff.

An 08 hire holding a captain position must consider themselves lucky, but after integration that is the range where they will fall on the 3000 pilot list.

No one will be bumped from their seats for SLI, only XJ Saab guys being displaced will cause people to lose their positions, but those 08 hires are going to be junior captains for a long time I believe.

pinnacle will be using date of hire not date of checkride.

Thats good, that's the way it should be.

Too bad I dont have a list with that information.

That implies that DOH will be the main factor. Your relative seniority would not change by moving your DOH back three months.

It makes a big diff when 9E was hiring 50+guys a month in 07-08

From the trends, most pilots benefit from straight DOH (as long as you dont work at Colgan)

How would your relative seniority change at all by moving your DOH? It wouldn't at all would it?

It would not, but I think the point is that the DOH method is going to be even more beneficial to 9E pilots than my numbers show because they will get a 3 month shift up when their real DOH is applied.

...........delete

Premerger, they had no job. Then they were offered jobs WITH longevity taken into consideration for their pay. And now they're making more than the other pilots in their class. What shaft did they get again? We should use historical practices for furloughs.

I'm gonna agree with Axial (someone please pinch me).
Say there are 2 XJ furloghs....1 with a 2008 hire date and one with a 2009 hire date. 2008 passes on getting hired at 9e with longevity bennies, but 2009 guy gets employed at 9e with XJ longevity. What gives the right for the guy who voluntarily said "no thanks" in the first round and is still unemployed to think he should be senior to the guy who showed incentive and took the 9e job? i think all XJ furloughs that took jobs at 9e should end up senior to the ones that didn't. The 2008 guy gambled when offered a job and lost. That happens in this industry...

And what would you propose happen to the more senior people that took voluntary furloughs and pursued other options with the intent that a more junior people might keep their jobs? There can't be a set of rules for those at the bottom of the list that is different for those in the middle or top. This isn't a black and white issue. Like it was said before, let the SLI people do their job, and when it's all over with lets all come back and complain about it. There's is nothing we can do about what they come up with.

i don't disagree with you, I just threw that out there for the sake of the rest of the argument on this board. Nothing is black and white as you pointed out and we have zero say in it. But I do find it hard to believe that all the senior peeps who took voluntary furloghs did it with the intent of a more Jr guy being able to keep his job. There must have been other motives that benefitted them. Read all the crap on this forum there is no team, everyone is out for numero uno. ;)

Because that was the deal they were offered. If they were made the offer that they had to go to 9E or 9L or lose their XJ seniority, I would agree with you, but they were not given that offer.

We won't even know for certain if anyone will be integrated until the day after tomorrow anyway.

What if they didn't want to take the chance that they would have been stuck under 9E's current contract or worse yet, Colgan's non-contract?

Like I've said before, if they were merging the lists and the XJ furloughs were going to displace someone else on the list into furlough, then I agree with you, but that is not the case at all.

They are on XJ's seniority list, and they deserve all of it's protections.

The historical practice is wrong and selfish.

Is there really even a historical precedent set on this in the Regional industry? They are on the XJ seniority list and they deserve to get integrated in seniority order just like everyone else. That is why we have a Union and I would expect the Union to uphold their seniority rights just like they are going to respect every other pilot's seniority right.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. My guess is the SLI will be handled just as most other mergers have, especially if it goes to arbitration. Which it probably will.

Just because the integration goes to an arbitrator doesn't mean that the arbitrator has to figure out the whole list. It will just be what the merger committees haven't agreed to. Odds are the furloughs will be sorted out before an arbitrator is needed.

And again, whether they are put at the bottom of the active list or they are merged with their XJ seniority won't really change a whole lot. They will still be at the bottom.

God, I swear some of you are worse than kids. So much whining going on. Let's wait and see what the SLI has to offer.

Yeah, then let the whining begin!

Is there going to be a Merger Assessment Fee attached to all this?

Is there going to be a merger?? TA dead equals no SLI!!:eek:

My vote.

2 for 1 method... 2 staples, 1 list. 9L first then XJ... Sorry all you fools but don't forget this is a purchase not a merge. If our union was not so kind this is how it would have been played all along. XJ did it to do us back in the day and would do the same thing again if this was the other way around and no one can deny that.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....ROLL TIDE!!!!:eek:

Wow, are you off in left field. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You are the vocal minority that embarrass the rest of us.

Be that as it may, I doubt we're gonna be the ones that suddenly turn historical precedent on its ear with the SLI....

It's subjective and depends on where one sits on the seniority list.