Airline Pilot Central Forums - Colgan 3407 crash...Chief Pilot Emails

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Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1074835)

I work with a lot of former FSDOs in my current job and I've asked them a few times since seeing this on the forums about failing, records, reasons, etc.... Every one of them says that unless an applicant almost killed them doing something wrong that they don't fail on a single item - especially one that could be contested such as a recommended practice right out of the POH. Personally I think it would be a poor debrief if a DPE wouldn't sit down with you after a bust and debrief you in *detail* exactly what you did wrong. I know it is a different environment, but if I ever failed anyone on a flight then it was well debriefed and documented because the paperwork and reasons were scrutinized for validity. Even when listening to students discussion the flight or the outcome it seemed to be a little more narrow in focus than the actual flight/sim.

USMCFLYR

True on all points. One of the sad realities of the civilian world is that DE's are ALSO business men, and in business time is money. I can't tell you how many times when I was either taking a check ride, or at the airport and check rides were being given that this was apparent. In the summer, some guys are cranking out as many a 4 rides in a single day, in the winter 3. Doesn't matter if it's a pass or a fail, but that doesn't seem like much time to be spending on each individual applicant to cover all the thumbs up/thumbs down items, as well as all the standard collateral learning that takes place on a ride.

There was on one DE in my area that was being a little bit TOO mercenary in his practices, and it caught up to him. And worse, it affected the careers of some of the people he certified. Although they wouldn't find out till later in their careers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdalbrec (Post 1074871)

I would definitely agree. I'm actually surprised that the second regional took him. I thought if you washed out of a 121 training program that was the 'black mark' - so to speak.

Before 3407, hardly. In the wake of 3407, more and more so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1074840)

As a DPE, are your pass/fail statistics by certificate or rating anywhere for prospective clients/schools to research (internet, FAA database, personal records, etc...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjtguy (Post 1074875)

I can't tell you how many times when I was either taking a check ride, or at the airport and check rides were being given that this was apparent. In the summer, some guys are cranking out as many a 4 rides in a single day, in the winter 3.

I've got to call B.S. on this one. FAA Order 8900.2 specifically restricts us from conducting more than two complete certification rides in one day. It has done so for years. About three months ago my POI called me and asked if I'd done more than two in one day, because their computer said I did. Two more phone calls a couple weeks later, and I finally wrote them a letter listing the page in 8900.2 and saying that I was well aware if it. Don't know what happened to cause this, but they ARE watching us. After doing two rides in one day I'm tired enough I wouldn't WANT to do any more...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowa Farm Boy (Post 1074965)

Every year when I apply for renewal I have to submit a list of all check rides/ applicants/ pass/ failures since my last renewal. AFAIK the FAA does not make that information available to the public. I suspect this is so the "Santa Claus" Examiners don't get all the business. I'm quite sure that most CFIs in their local area know the DPE's reputation, and if they don't it won't take very many phone calls to find it out.

I've got to call B.S. on this one. FAA Order 8900.2 specifically restricts us from conducting more than two complete certification rides in one day. It has done so for years. About three months ago my POI called me and asked if I'd done more than two in one day, because their computer said I did. Two more phone calls a couple weeks later, and I finally wrote them a letter listing the page in 8900.2 and saying that I was well aware if it. Don't know what happened to cause this, but they ARE watching us. After doing two rides in one day I'm tired enough I wouldn't WANT to do any more...

I've personally seen 3-4 in a day. Look at ATP!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruz5350 (Post 1074967)

I've personally seen 3-4 in a day. Look at ATP!

Not sure about ATP but some of these could be considered "end of course" done by a check pilot and not a DPE or FAA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowa Farm Boy (Post 1074965)

Feel free to "call B.S." on whatever you want. But I was there and saw it happen when I was a CFI in the 90's. And like I said, in the case of one, it caught up to him and ended his examining career, as well as helped to slightly screw up the careers of people he examined. Until it was discovered years later what he had done.

I'm not saying ALL of them were like that, but I remember seeing more than one DE at the airport from sun up to sun down doing rides, for more than 2 applicants.

Just a little perspective here. Nearly 15 years ago, I failed my private, comm, and CFII, All with the same examiner. They were legit busts, but he was a tough examiner.

All these years later I have 4 transport category PIC type ratings. I've been a 121 captain on 3 of those planes. I have more than enough 121 PIC time. I'm a sim instructor at my airline. I've taken more than a decade worth of 121 recurrent check rides and line checks and fed observations. I've never had a single 121 failure in all of those years. In fact, I've never had to retrain a single event on any of those check rides. Never needed an extra sim session. Even debrief items are rare.

Why should I still be penalized for those three failures 15 years ago?

Quote:

Originally Posted by obx41 (Post 1075213)

Why should I still be penalized for those three failures 15 years ago?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think it would be much of an issue for you.

You've got a proven 121 training record. An airline has already proven that you're perfectly trainable...you're not trying to get into the scene from the outside.

Those emails were not shared with the NTSB: watch for another news story to come. Pinnacle will be opening up their and their insurers wallet.

GF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruz5350 (Post 1074873)

There have been airlines that are known to be shady when washing out applicants.

You know it brotha, amen!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowa Farm Boy (Post 1074965)

I've got to call B.S. on this one. FAA Order 8900.2 specifically restricts us from conducting more than two complete certification rides in one day.

Even so, 3 checkrides a week at $500 per ride, with the occasional reexamination fee, isn't bad at the end of the month.

The FAA should go back to the pre-3407 policy of purging failures after 5 years, it's hurting too many people careers not to do so. A lot of good people out there who had a few bad days, are being looked at as if they're lower than dog excrement.