Regional vs. instructing
 

I have noticed that the longer a CFI instructs, the more picky he is about what airlines they would apply to. I still fairly new to instructing, but I am wondering if anyone has any input on instructing for another year and building hours vs. trying to get an airline job sooner than later. I am not talking about GoJets or Mesa, but perhaps Big Sky or another airline that will hire at 500-600 hours TT (I currently only have 40 Multi, bummer) that would be okay to work at for a few years or so. It seems like flying a turboprop would be better time spent than instructing out of a 152, and that could get the PIC turbine faster as well. I guess that I am not seeing why someone would opt to instruct for a long time instead of going to a regional. Perhaps to get on to a "better" airline like ExpressJet or SkyWest instead of BigSky?

Get 135 minimums then fly freight for a year or so. You will get turbine PIC at most carriers and your airline interviews will be much easier after you get some real world flying experience. You will have a great time as well. Don't rush to get into a regional, it isn't that great.

BTW Shaun Kudos to you for earning your job and not just paying people off like a GOD D@MNED Academy Puke.... Keep up the good work man....

If you've ruled out go-jets and mesa you're on the right track. The pain and hassle of ANY 121 training program is significant. I probably wouldn't do a big sky unless they have a base in your hometime. Wait until you can get into a decent regional with geography that is good for you.

A small turbo-prop only regional might be useful for quick PIC, but that PIC will only be useful if you have a good connection at a major that is hiring (or soon will be). SWA airlines will interview just about anyone with 1800-2000 121 PIC, but they interview many and hire few. If you go through all that and get burned out as a Big Sky captain in 3 years you'll end up applying to those same big regionals that you could have done as a 1200 hour CFI...

I think I'm going to go the route that crjav8er mentioned. A bunch of CFI's at my school got hired recently and I probably could have gone with them but decided against it for a couple reasons. First, I didn't want to work for the company they went to. Second, I'm really liking instucting and would make a career out of it if it paid better. Third, at 500 hours I feel that I have a lot to learn before blasting around in an RJ with 50 people's lives depending on me. I'd rather wait and have a chance at a better regional. First year pay sucks, I don't want to spend two years on it.

The FBO I used to work at handled a lot of 135 ops and the flying sort of appeals to me. It's tough, it's potentially dangerous, but it will make you a damn good pilot. I think I'll do that for a couple years and try to move to a fractional or something. Then again, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

True, however, I will be able to apply to any regional and have a fair chance at getting hired. I will also have to work fewer years at the better regional before I go after a major job. After a few years as a CFI I will have total time, but my multi will still be lacking. Also, I will make more as a regional pilot than as a CFI. If I have enough time for a 135 operation, I would rather go into a regional. It seems like an unnecisary step to me.

I guess I am trying to look long term. What route will get me to where I want to be the fastest. Maybe that is the wrong way to look at it? It seems that I could go to a lesser regional, then go to a better regional for a while after that to build the time for a major, and it would be better than instructing for another few years (while paying for more multi time, very few multi students around here) and then just barely having mins for the better regionals.

Anyone who went into a regional with low time and would have instructed longer if they were able to do it again?

Thanks, Space Monkey

I've known such instructors too - they meet or exceed mins for many regionals, but choose to hold out. Somebody explained to me one reason for this is because let's say you have 700 TT, get an interview with XYZ Regional, get hired by XYZ, and then class gets canceled/you get furloughed/etc etc. Then you're stuck in a bad place.. you already quit your CFI job, and don't quite have enough hours to be competitive to a whole lot of other jobs out there. So some people would rather wait until they have a good amount of hours under their belt, say 1500. A security thing, I guess.

And another small reason would be the pay.. I guess it depends on where you teach, but if you work at some large aviation universities (or even some busy FBOs), you actually take a pay cut the first year or two of getting onto a regional.

I second that.

I have gone the non-regional route. I have not qualified for food stamps since I left flight instruction :)

But, as an outsider, the only thing I have regreted is not making as many quality contacts (it seems) as those who went the regional route, but I was always a bit hard headed and wanted to earn the job on my qualificatiion vice who I know.

Good luck and keep your chin up. Honest work will win (sorry for the protestant work ethic thing).

j

Having interviewed with Big Sky myself, I'd say go work for them if you can. They've got a lot of great flying going on out there, and it seems like a fun bunch of people. Additionally, they plan on doubling their operation within the next year, so there's some room for growth there.
As far as burning bridges by quitting your CFI job to go fly for a regional, this doesn't always have to be the case. If you explain the situation to your employer, there's a good chance they'd be more than happy to hire you back on if the airline pilot thing doesn't work out - especially if you did good work.

Another thing to think about is that occasionally some less experienced pilots have a hard time with 121 training. That is not to say they can't be good pilots, but are just having a hard time keeping up with things if they only have a few hundred hours of experience.

I hear about pilots from time to time at my own company who wash out. We have a solid training dept and they are big on attitude. But attitude will only get you so far and washing out of a training program would be terrible for you own morale and also might make it more difficult to secure another interview later.

Just my $.02.

I am not trying to be negative, but if you get your MEI or a 135 M/E job and some real M/E experience you will probably have a much easier time with 121 training.

You'll be ready to go somewhere, right around the 1,000 hour mark. It's like clock work. I wanted to instruct a little longer and get some more experience doing that before I moved on. Right around 1,000 hours I was getting slightly tired of making laps around the pattern. None the less, as long as you keep progressing in some way it doesn't matter. Whether you're still instructing and slowly memorizing every word in the AIM and getting better as an instructor, you're progressing. The guys that wash-out of training are the ones that either have the wrong attitude, or have not spent enough time preparing for the training.

Pip,

I supervise a lot of peopl like you. They don't think they are ready for increased responsibility. I tell them the same thing - the man thinks you're ready so you are. Step up and go for it. If you fail you were destined to fail anyway. Why delay the inevitable? Don't get comfortable in life - you'll end up like all those middle-aged men with families - shoulders slumped / head held down waiting for the weekend 'honey do-this' list...

-LAFF

You won't regret 135. It will make you a better pilot (both stick skills and especially decision making). When you get to an airline you will have a lot to contribute.

Oh trust me, I'll know when I'm ready. Right now isn't the time for me. When I decide it's time to move on, I'm gone. Until then I'm enjoying what I'm doing. I'm the "take charge, lead by example" type as it is. I'm not one to burn a bridge and with the number of hours I currently have there are only a couple places I can go. If one of them were to furlough a large number of pilots like they recently did I would be hosed. I'd rather do this a little longer as previously mentioned, gain some experience and have some options when the time to move up arrives.

I am somewhat in this same boat. I just started a CFI job and went into it with over 400 hrs. So, meeting say XJT's 600/100 mins won't be too far into the future. But if I leave under a year, I'd have to pay back standardization costs to my employer. And honestly I have many contacts flying for the regionals now, and other than flying a jet, the grass is really not greener, in some cases its actually brown. With all the regionals racing each other to the bottom to win business, it's really unappealing. I'll do a year as a CFI and sharpen my skills and then reevaluate when/if the dust settles a year from now.

I agree 1000%.

In my job, I instruct and evaluate these 'low experience' folks. I just did the recheck on a young guy who had busted his FO PC. While he passed the recheck, it was painfully obvious that he lacked some significant basic instrument flying skills, and his complete lack of any 121 experience will be a major problem in IOE. His background...cropdusting and a little time in a piston twin. Great attitude...I wish him well, but the wolf is waiting for him in IOE.

I suggest you young folks get out of non-121 ops as soon as you can. Please do not confuse accumulation with experience...lots of hours doing the same thing is not experience in the sense that we are looking for here on the training end. Sitting in a small piston single engine aircraft as an instructor is a great way to learn the basics of flying...but those kind of basics is not what we look for in airline training.

We take basic stick and rudder skills for granted...our program is not pilot training...we expect our students to know how to fly. This expectation sometimes is misplaced, and the result is a pink slip...and even if the applicant gets past the recheck, too often he doesn't get past IOE.

In a nutshell, here is what we think is important...good instrument flying skills, familiarity with FMS and flight directors, time in swept wing jet aircraft, familiarity with typical airline operations, proficiency in CRM...and the ability to think at 400kts, not 100.

First off, I did get hired at a regional with low time. However, I haven't been here too long. I'll let you know in 4 years whether or not I was happy with my decision:D ...It all depends on where this experience leads me. Right now, I love my job much more than instructing, love the people I work with, and am glad that I'm making more money than I did as an instructor. I'm also very happy with the kind of experience that I'm building.

If "where you want to be" is a major 121 carrier, then the fastest route is going to be a short-upgrade, most likely turboprop, regional...unless you get in on the ground level with a company like SkyWest that is growing by leaps and bounds, shortening the upgrade time...but that's beside the point.

I think this comes down to your current life situation. If you can handle the pay and lifestyle change right now, I don't see any reason why not to go for a place like BigSky, etc...However, location, as Rickair pointed out, location should be a factor as well. If you can't handle the pay and lifestyle right now, keep building your time to apply to the companies that will allow you to continue to enjoy your life in its current state.
I agree, for the most part. If you're trying for the airlines, you might as well get there and get started, now. However, as stated above, it might not be wise to make your life totally miserable for 4 years at a place you don't enjoy if your lifestyle can't handle it...

Build the most and best experience as quickly as possible. Get hired as quickly as possible, to avoid missing the hiring altogether, or getting furloughed. Good luck.

You'd be surprised. A LOT! of people leave places like Colgan, Gulfstream, etc. for the better regionals. It's a QOL thing. In my class there was a Colgan captain and a Gulfstream captain, as well as a cargo jet FO, each was tired of their companies $#@% and sick and tired of being pushed around, being transferred to new bases, TDY'ing, etc.

I made $28k my last year instructing. Had I gone to a "bottom feeder" regional instead of continuing to instruct I would've made $10+k less than that, while working myself to the bone. Yeah, I could've moved on earlier but I knew I was gonna check out (I'm in this for the QOL, not to sell my soul for quick PIC). So instead of making $15k-$18k at a crap regional I chose to instruct another year and get a job at a good regional. First year ~$25k second year ~$40k. No, not including per diem, all as an FO.

Like I said, I knew I wasn't gonna stick around. I had an interview at Colgan and told them thanks but no thanks.

Yes, if you get the PIC you can upgrade and your QOL will improve a lot if you get to a major quicker. I think there's a balance in life. Hopefully my company can hold out and stand it's own ground. We'll see how it ends up ;).

I am probably going to instruct for a while before I apply anywhere. I would like to at least get 135 mins. I am in the same boat as far as multi time goes, only 31.9, but who's counting. Sure it gets monotonous after a while, but I have learned more through instructing than when I was a student. In response to KALYX , I know instructors that took a "real" job as soon as they had the opportunity to. One guy I know worked as a CFI for six months before he was hired to right seat in a GIV (he bought time though to get to mins) as well as two other guys who followed suit and got hired on with the same company a few months later. Unfortunately for the other guys, that same company filed chapter 11 and raised their hiring minimums. The other guys were let go just after a week or two of training and one of them is having a real tough time getting back in the game.

Risk
 

We all pay in the end. Plenty of guys get hosed at work who supposedly "play by the rules". It makes more sence to loose a few thousand dollars to PFT than a decade of your life to ladder climbing.

SkyHigh

If you want to move toward 135 flying but are just waiting on the time, try Air Cargo Carriers. They hire low time. Its multi/turbine and they upgrade very quickly. Pay is adequate and once you upgrade you will make 40-50k easy....Quick way to build up quality time.

Hiring seems to move slow right now....I interviewed in June successfully but wasnt offered a class until september....I found another job and declined but it would be a good place.

FWIW.

i went to an academy, taught for a year, flew 135 for another year in a 402...does that mean I didn't earn my job??? I don't see your point here.

I think people are overreacting a little I'm the last one to advocate regional flying especially tprop, but it really is not a big deal to make it through training. You don't have to fly for shady cargo ops. As long as you have the right attitude and knowledge you will pass. It's the people that second guess themselves that get hurt. And by the way 135 cargo is no peanuts and often they've got tougher mins than some regionals.

From my perspective, I'd much rather see the turboprop regional time in students than 135 experience. Nothing against 135 flying, but that kind of experience is not as good in preparing folks for an airline environment.

Being only 24 there is a whole life ahead of me. As a pilot there will be a fair amount of time away from home. When I first started, I was ready to role, get my time and get in that right seat and work my tail off for the first airline that would hire me. After getting time 800 - 900 total and the interview with Xjet came along and it would have been Newark. Looking back Newark would have been ok but what a commute! As I got more time Bigsky came calling which you know I was pumped about. It sounds like a good place but Melissa got sick and she still is. That is why I haven't returned. Wifes health over a regional, I will take that any day. Skywest would have been great!!! That I why I am holding out for them in another month. With my time now 1300/190 I can get a interview with nearly any airline. I am going with a "good" regional. Somewhere that has good QOL, pay (of couse after the first year), good equiptment and good captains that can teach me alot is what I am looking for. There are other things in the world other than getting in the first jet/turboprop that is offered. Relax, take a pill and just enjoy where you are at now. Don't be so eager to become the next quizbot.

Not trying to become the next Quizbot, by any means. It seems like I will be at a regional for a while, why not get it started? I will build time faster, and will be able to move to another regional if I don't like the one that I am at (and start at the bottom, just like I would do if I came out of instructing). It just seems that flying 121 would be better experience than continuing to ask students why they didn't flare for the tenth time that day.

You're right, Shaun. I prefer to ask myself why I didn't flare:D

Shaun - I had the exact same question you did about a year and a half ago. I decided to stay a CFI and I made a lot more money with a better QOL until I met competitive mins for my first choice regional. From talking to other guys in my class who were working on their second regional, stay a CFI. You don't want two years of first year FO pay, two years of sitting on the bottom on reserve. I had friends that left a year earlier than me to go "build time" at a low-rent regional and now they're in the exact same place I am plus or minus a couple months. It all depends on how much you like your job as a CFI - I enjoyed mine thoroughly.

But what is important here is define a low-rent regional. This all denpends on where and what your needs are in life. I remember when I was an instructor all I wanted was Horizon. Why not they paid the best right!! Until somebody talked the sense in to me and said "your 22 years old do you really want to retire at a regional? They have an 8 year upgrade there and you won't see the left seat until your 30." He explained in 8 years you might have a family and responsilbility. Can you take a horrible pay cut for the first couple years and go to a major like Alaska, Frontier, or Southwest. After thinking about it no I can't, and I don't want to. Soon I learned the best way to play the game in get hired at a major ASAP. All I'm saying is there is a regional for everybody. Some people want pay or some want quick PIC turbine time. It just all depends! In my case I went for a quick upgrade and PIC time, but the money wasn't a huge concern at the time. Everybody thought I was dumb, but all my buddies are still in the right seat, and I have been a CAPT. for almost two years with my first major interview next month. Now all they say is "How did you get in such a great position?" And bottom line is all regionals suck. You want to tell me you all became pilots to fly out and backs and top out at 100 after 20 years in a CRJ. I sure didn't. Just keep looking ahead and don't get brain washed by the flash of some regionals. Go to a regional not for just the pay, but always weigh in flight time, training, and getting what you need for the next job. Good luck all you hard working CFIs. Just my two cents!!

When I finally decided to jump from CFI to the regionals (it was tough because I took a pay cut, wasn't home everynight, etc) I tried to look at where I would be based, would I want to live in any of those places (since I decided early on I didn't want to commute, at least not at first). More importantly than that, when I looked at a company I asked myself "would I be hating life if I got stuck here for 10 years?" All you guys who to Colgan or Great Lakes for the fast upgrade are taking a risk (in my opinion) that the industry wont take another dump like it did post-9/11. Would you really want to be stuck in that B1900 for 10 years flying the same route over and over day in day out? I decided I wouldn't be happy and that I would rather be at a company that had a good reputation with employees and had a wider variety of flying.

I'm sure you all heard of Rod Machado.....wtf 8,000TT and he's about 50? That right there is a wasted life in aviation, IMO. He's probably rakin in money for seminars and stuff, but really...thats just Gay

You have to decide what you want. Airline, cargo, corporate, whatever. Then work towards that goal. Don't pass up an opportunity to move up to something bigger and better. Money will come later. I could have been a CAL captain by now, but I refused to go to Continental Express (crappy airline back then) and PFT back in the early 90's. Those guys who did are CAL captains now. Who would have known? Seniority is EVERYTHING in airlines. Get there now. Regional or major. That's assuming you want the airlines. Training can be tough on the inexperienced. I know a guy with the basic certificates, no CFI ratings, 1500TT and some right seat C-402 time he purchased with a 135 operator. He got hired by two airlines: one B-1900 and one CRJ. He failed both training in the middle of the sims. Is he a bad pilot? No, he has no experience or background to make it through 121 training. Get into a twin as a CFI, then a twin as a corporate or cargo carrier, then a regional, then a major. Work your way up and do it fast because seniority is EVERYTHING. A few months could mean a huge difference in seniority. I did 1500TT as a CFI and 1000 as traffic watch pilot. Then I flew different turbo props corporate, then I went to a regional and flew turbo props and then RJ's. Then I went to a major and flew 737's and now the 757/767. That's a long road (but was fun). Today CFI's are going into RJ's. Good for them. You try it. You'll save a few years of climbing the ladder and get that seniority now. Good luck to you all.

I'd hardly call him a wasted life in aviation. What could be more valuable service to aviation than giving excellent training to future pilots who may fly your family around one day? If you read any of his columns, you can see that he is truly knowledgeable and respectable flight instructor, and a good writer to boot!

And yes, I do agree that he is probably swimming in the dough.. because he was smart and dedicated enough to make it to the top of his professional field, and thus is able to demand a high rate for this instructing services (and books, seminars etc.)

I agree with you about Rod Machado, kaly. The aviation world needs as many dedicated and experienced CFIs as it can get. No offense to those who are just instructing to build time, of course - I'm in that position myself. To be a CFI, especially a liftime CFI, shows true dedication to aviation.

In response to GetErDun, to call the life of someone like that "a waste" is an insult to all instructors and aviation professionals out there! We all should give back to the aviation community in some way, and Mr. Machado has found a way. And a successful way, at that! My hat's off to him, and even moreso to the career CFI at your local airport who doesn't bring in the big bucks.

It's not just about logging hours or getting rich - and if you've lost sight of that I feel sorry for you.

There's risk everywhere in this business. It's all in where you lay your chips. For instance, what if the industry "takes a dump," as you say, and you have been stuck in the right seat for 4 years at a "good" regional? What do you have? About 3200 SIC...while those crazy guys that went to Colgan and Great Lakes may be the only ones that are competitive for the few jobs out there. Yes, your opinion is correct, to an extent. Just realize that there is no risk-free route to the top in this career.

I've asked some "lifers" why they didn't go fly a cool jet, and most simply bring up the fact that they get to see their families every night, get weekends off, and are paying the bills. Doesn't sound like such a bad deal to me.

Machado is considered one of the best at what he does and he's entertaining to boot. Book sales alone are probably bringing that guy more than any senior captain. How many airline pilots are allowed or even given the chance to do something that sets them above the rest?

I didn't say there wasn't risk at the "good regionals". My point was that if I am stuck in the right seat for 4 years, I'd rather be at a company where I was treated like a person, not ballast, was having fun and enjoyed the flying than be at a company where every day was worse than the day before and be hating life. I don't care what anyone says LGA-ALB-LGA has got to get old FAST. If you gotta poke yourself in the eye during the approach to make things interesting, you are NOT having a good time. Those of us at the "good" regionals are in the same boat as those "crazy guys" at Colgan or Great Lakes if the industry goes into another nose dive. If the majors aren't hiring, where are all those CAs at Colgan or Great Lakes gonna go? If the CAs aren't moving, the FOs aren't moving. So now Jim Bob FO who went to Colgan expecting to upgrade in 18 months is now stuck in the right seat of the B1900 for 4 years. And Bob Jim FO who went to Skywest is also stuck for the next 4 years. Now they are both in the same position (except the guy in the Beech probably can't hear worth a damn any more:D ) but who got the better deal? SIC is worth about the same no matter what its in. Thats all I was trying to say.