Riddle CAPT program grads
 

Can anyone tell me what would cause a person to spend about $75,000 to get a job that pays $24/hour? Unreal.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Three Piedmont first officers are a first for Embry-Riddle's CAPT program

ERAU Press Release
July 10, 2005

Daytona Beach, Fla., June 23, 2005 -- Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University has placed three graduates of its Commercial Airline Pilot Training (CAPT) program as first officers at Salisbury, Md.-based Piedmont Airlines -- another milestone for the program.

Hillary Breen, Marcus Iammatteo, and Britton Tabor were signed on as first officers by Piedmont shortly after they graduated from the full-immersion program, which trains individuals with no flight experience to the highest standards of the commercial airline industry. Piedmont carries more than three million passengers a year to 49 destinations in the eastern United States, Canada, and the Bahamas with a fleet of 55 deHavilland DHC-8 aircraft.

The three graduates are completing their initial line operating experience with Piedmont and will soon finish qualifying for line flying out of the airline’s New York LaGuardia pilot base.

“We are extremely pleased with the addition of Piedmont Airlines to the list of employers hiring CAPT graduates,” said Gary Morrison, CAPT’s program manager. “We are confident that these three pilots will be successful in their new careers and will make excellent employees for Piedmont.”

Piedmont hired Breen, Iammatteo, and Tabor just after they completed the CAPT Program’s demanding jet airliner DC-9 series type-rating course. The course teaches airline operations skills and expert knowledge about complex jet transport category operations in an airline environment. Training in the Boeing MD-90, a Level-D simulator with modern “glass-cockpit” displays, full-fidelity visual systems, and six-axis motion capabilities, is recognized by the FAA as jet aircraft time. CAPT cadets log at least 100 hours of flight time and gain experience in pilot-in-command and second-in-command positions while earning their DC-9 series FAR Part 61 type rating.

Hillary Breen, from northern Virginia, graduated from James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va. The daughter of a Navy pilot, she worked as a reservations and gate agent for United Airlines and a flight attendant for American Airlines before achieving her dream job: professional pilot.

Marcus Iammatteo, originally from Holmdel, N.J., was stationed at Kaneohe Marine Corps Base in Hawaii, where he was a helicopter mechanic. After his discharge, he earned a bachelor degree in professional aeronautics from Embry-Riddle and was completing a graduate degree in aeronautical science when he discovered the CAPT Program.

Britton Tabor, a native of Honolulu, Hawaii, was completing a master’s in theater at the University of North Carolina when the flying bug bit him. After completing the CAPT Program, he worked briefly as a flight instructor at Wilgrove Aviation in Charlotte, N.C., before being hired by Piedmont Airlines.

Please tell me this is some kind of flame bait?

No, it's not, sorry to offend as that's not my intention. I do wonder what CAPT and other similar programs tell potential buyers about the state of the industry and what kind career earnings they might expect as a graduate of such a program. They finish $75,000 later with a few ratings but no real experience. So how many years at the regionals to get some PIC time while they pay back the student loans and try to eek out any kind of life?

This is not a dig at the buyers, they are big boys and girls and decided that going into debt is right for them. I'm really cynical of profiteers exploiting the dream of flying that some of these guys and gals have.

I have a hard time understanding the thought process when you do the math.

Figure $24 hour at an 85 hour month is about $1850 after federal taxes (11%), don't even mention FICA, Health care, or States taxes.

Also consider about $75,000 to finish the program (I'm told that's low) at 20% down would leave $60,000 to finance. The risk of default is high, so the interest rate is also going to be high. Using $60K at 10 years with 10% interest will cost around $800 per month.

So again, help me understand. Why would someone go through this to live off of maybe $12K per year for several years? Sincerely, I just don't understand. The industry has changed, paying ones dues to get that big job at the majors isn't worth it anymore.

Very good point. Also I am not flaming, but take this a step farther. US Airways goes belly up and then what happens to Piedmont? They furlough or go out of business and now what do these guys and girls have to look forward to? With no experience and a pile of debt, the options are limited. I think as long as there are airplanes in the sky there will be some school trying to sucker people into their "dream" job. Just read any avaition magazine and you see the bs pitch these people throw........"Be a commercial jet pilot in 90 days ect." I am shocked that there have not been more lawsuits over this kind of thing. Actually kind of sad.

What ever happened the www.CAPTisCRAP.com website??? Were they forced to take it down by ERAUs lawyers?

I hate to see people throw that kind of money at such a low-paying job. The worst thing is rushing people into airline jobs so that the experience pool gets thinned out. You get a future where low-timers are flying you're family around.

The last guy mentioned in the article is Britton Tabor. This guy was a dispatcher at my old flight school in Oregon.

The question was asked prior to the posting of the article: Can anyone tell me what would cause a person to spend about $75,000 to get a job that pays $24/hour? I can now honestly answer that question. Mr. Tabor had a whole lotta mommy & daddy's moola and was convined that HE would not be a CFI. I'm generally a pretty nice guy, but honestly, I've gotta call a spade a spade. This guy and people like him are the reason outfits like Gulfstream Airlines are around. The funny thing here is that if he had skipped the CAPT program and just become a CFI, his odds of getting a job at Piedmont would be about the same.

First, Rama, great series of books!

Second, define lowtime?

Seriously? Really? Exactly who is going to programs like these? Newer pilots who need experience. Where does that come from?? It comes from flying yourself & friends on trips, being a CFI, towing banners, dropping jumpers, freight doggin etc. How does 100 hours in a MD-90 simulator help these people? What "perspective" are they really getting? Newer pilots need to develop their aviation & decision making skills. They need to test their boundaries, maybe make a few unwise decisions and learn from them. An occasional scare does more to teach a pilot then repeatedly running approaches in a simulator. Furthermore, there isn't anything they can do in a sim to fake the 5th leg of a 4day trip on day number 3. Passengers in bad moods, awful weather, ground stops, re-routes, physical and mental exhaustion. The list goes on. That "perspective" comes from doing the job.

So I guess for those years you're logging SIC time, you should really be called a sandbag? It's a miracle they even let me sit in the seat. Maybe one day, I too will be a jet captain. Then, finally my wife can tell her friends that she's married to a "professional".

It seems like your perspective may be askew.

As a five year FO (NOT by choice), I agree with Jetlink.

Am I still NOT a professional pilot because my company hasn't afforded me any upgrade opportunity?? Even though I met the minimum requirments to upgrade when I was first hired (which is 3,000 hours by the way)???

Or, does it mean that the little punk whose airline stole our flying by contract and who got to upgrade right at 1500 hours IS a professional???

If you think flying in a SIM makes someone more professional than actual line flying, then YOU need perspective!

F.O. 's are proffessionals.I sit in the left seat now and easily remember the days in the right. The captain and the F.O. are a team. Like a Dr. And a Nurse.....like a Fire captain and his firefighters. Like a manager of a bank and the assistant manager. All important for performance and safety. If someone feels like they are not a proffesional in the right seat they should get out. Because when they go to the left seat you will not know how to treat your F.O. with integrity, proffesionalism and as part of the team.

I also have to agree that right seat time in the sim is not as good experience as flying the line...even in a 13 single op or instruction. the airlines do the sim training when you get hired. why not go out and fly for a jump op, scenic tour, 135 single op, instruction etc. Learn how to make go no go decisions, learn to really fly.

Just my .02cents

P

This is one of the most idiotic posts I have ever seen. Flying a sim has nothing to do with flying for an airline. Period. In fact flying is the easiest part of the whole job. Managing, planning, is the hard part that cannot be duplicated in the sim.

I am not going to comment on your whole post except for the professional part. I think you need to find your handy dictionary and look up professional. Your thoughts do not make you a professional. Your ideas do not make you a professional. Your constructive problem solving do not make you a professional. The fact that you are being paid to fly to the best of your ability makes you a pro. Flying .1 hours in a Dash 8, or a J-3 banner towing is a professional. I don't care if you are an f/o or captain. The only difference between the two is seniority.

And yes experience does come from hundreds of hours in Cessnas. Trust me on that one. As you can tell Brown, you have much to learn.

I have attempted to retract my post because there is a little too much experience and professionalism here. Thanks for calling me an idiot and for telling me I have much to learn. I have achieved that which I wanted to, and some pretty smart people clearly felt that I was good enough for the job I have now.

Translation: I am a student pilot, willing to believe anything programs like CAPT feed me.

No, thank you for pointing out new aviation revelations to us all.

Your flamebiat was well received young Skywalker.

Not sure who these people are, but I want to believe! If all else fails, here's a career with many ups and downs: http://www.ringling.com/

You're an F/O on a lawndart........settle down.

Ohhhh....let the beatings begin (please).


"I have achieved that which I wanted to, and some pretty smart people clearly felt that I was good enough for the job I have now."


And I guess it doesn't take much to impress someone with your janitorial abilities....

By the way... those PDT FOs will get a tremendous pee-pee spank when they get on the line by the crusty old timers who don't much appreciate those kinds of programs. If they have the right attitude, they will be fine. If not, they will be some hurtin' units.

............and now a Dash 8 F/O. How did I get entangled in this mess? I should go back to the majors board; where opinions don't get crushed so easily. If only your Mommies knew how you spoke in public. They would probably take that little picture of you standing in front of your impressive regional aircraft out of their wallets. You know, the one that shows everything that you have accomplished, ie. not being a flight instructor anymore.

I'm sure you've built stellar credentials at the majors board too, seeing you have a whopping 6 posts - 3 of them in this thread. Instead of "taking your ball and going home" why don't you wow us with your depth and experience.

Eloquently said & delightfully tasteful.

Agree, well said. But I bet his night shift sweeping the gym floor began and he is off of his computer for a few hours.

How were your eight 60 mile legs today in the prop? You are right, I do work the nightshift. But today it'll be the dayshift: KIX-ANC. I know it must have been difficult for your Mommy to let you start working out of state; but when you grow up and have freed yourself from her bosom and your Mommy lets you leave the country!!!!!!!........I'll tell you about these fantastic places.

Incidentally, this message board was started by one of my colleagues; so were the payscales. You know, the one you look at all the time when you dream of what your life may (highly unlikely) become. I have no one to impress here.......just having a little fun.

Ha Ha I dont know what is funnier the fact that this thread turned into a middle school fight, or the fact that I actually spent the time reading all of the replies myself. As to my opinion on the subject, does it really matter how each of us got (or where we hope to end up) were we are? I enjoy this forum because I like to hear and see all the different ways to getting to a job in the airlines whether it be in a jet or a turbo prop. I myself am going to have to go the most common way and earn my ratings and then flight instruct/ freight dog it/ banner tow...etc. I guess I myself am jealous in a way that I am not getting to jump in a jet with only a few hundred hours TT. But from what I have seen in my own eyes I am almost looking forward to hopefully someday fly 7 legs a day in a prop. In my own personal opinion I think that is what flying is all about! Any trained monkey (or pilot) can set up a flight plan and let the plane fly it on its own. But anyways, congrats to all on being where you are today, I hope to be amongst all of you sometime soon!

Great attitude FlyingJack13! That is the way it should be. There is far too much member measuring in aviation....such as with Brown Cow.

By the way, some of us actually enjoy flying (as previously posted). Do you think I would be staying here if I didn't like the seven leg days in my prop? As the number one person in base, I enjoy my weekends and holidays off.

Are there things that suck? Yes, but everyone else's grass is always greener. I will take the upgrade when and if it comes, but until then I will enjoy my more than ample pay and my very satisfying lifestyle. No one to impress either Brown Cow...the difference is that I don't go around bashing people for their place in aviation.

I hope that your colleague sees what an a$$ you are on his board.

And? :confused:

Question for flyingjack
 

I saw your colors flyingjack, are you by chance a VU guy?

VU? not really sure what ya mean there, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no! Ha, well if ur talking about school I'm going to South Dakota State University in Brookings, SD. Yeah ya know the one above Nebraska between Wyoming and Minnesota! :D

Brown Cow,

I happen to be one of your colleagues, and I certainly don't appreciate your thought process! I wouldn't mind knowing exactly who you are!! :cool:

You say that now (don't worry, I did too). Just wait until you get to experience the joys of 14 hour duty days with a couple of 3 hour "airport appreciation tours", all to get maybe 6 hours of flight time... (in case you didn't do the math, that works out to 8 hours of sitting around, either on a turn or on an airport appreciation tour, waiting to go fly again, all while earning your $1.5 or so in perdiem.)

Repeat after me- 7 legs a day sucks.
5 legs a day will have you exhausted.

And, oh yeah, after your required minimum rest, you're off to do it again tomorrow!

I'm not trying to dissuade you or anything. It is a fun job. It really is. I just hope you don't come here all doe-eyed and bushy tailed thinking that 7 legs a day in an RJ or a turbo-prop is the coolest thing since sliced bread- you're gonna get severley dissapointed really quickly. I had a few of these 3-400 hour guys come in from Flight Safety or wherever in my class- all of them were disgruntled in less than 2 months after flying the line.

Enjoy where you are RIGHT NOW, in that Piper, or Cessna, or Diamond, or whatever. For the next couple of years, I guarantee you, it's the best flying, the most FUN flying you'll do. Once you get a uniform and a showtime, you'll understand. When you're sitting at a gate 2 hours delayed, having figuring out that, when you factor in all the time spent in uniform (not counting overnights), you're making less than minimum wage, you'll be wondering why you ever even chose this career- think back to the Cessna days.

Me
 

"Can anyone tell me what would cause a person to spend about $75,000 to get a job that pays $24/hour? Unreal."


ME.

I'm looking into Delta Connection Academy

Tuition cost $64,500
buys me 1000 TT
100 ME

I could bum time from friends and even get ME time from one or two of them but I'm not a moocher.

I can't afford to pay them going rates and I doubt the finance company would cut me a check to drop them their costs of equipment and time.

Now one of my Capt buddies has done all this for his son to set him up in their charter business but alas I was born to GM factory workers.

College ? well even partially came from my own pocket for the semester I was able to attend.

I'm 39 as of a few weeks ago.
When I was younger and had the time to "earn" my hours and ratings ( tongue in cheek) I was busy building a business.

I eventually hired a friend of mine from highschool that had been out of a private college around 2 years that had him around 65k in debt.

He was back working a job that he had worked through highschool plus plowing in the winter.

Since he was a normal 4 year BS student with no specialized training meant he didn't have much to go after except those jobs that liked to see sheepskins and paid about 2 more bucks an hour for them.

So here I was a highschool grad that was a "road scholar" paying him and my college grad brother.

I would tease them about spending all that money on college when they hadn't obtained any "skills" to get a good paying job. I'd regularly say, "I'm driving a Porsche and your paying off tuition."

I pretty much had the same logic as the original poster in that scenerio.

I've had career changes since selling my company and have been for awhile uncertain of what to do for the next 20 years or so for more income.

I saw a DCA in a scuba mag while waiting for a hair cut and thought , hrmmm
I've always wanted to fly. When I had the money I didn't have the time and when i had the time I didn't have the money. Not necessarily be a commercial pilot, but well I am looking at a new career and this could be a decent ride for the next 19 years.

So I did some research (some of which lead me here) and currently am waiting to do my Med exam next week.

One of the first things I looked at was the need and the income.

Yeah it's all fine and dandy to say a senior Capt with the majors makes a quarter mill but I'm concerned with what I can make and the limitation of only being able to make it in 19 years.

Sure entry level Tier 1 regional pay bites the big one and add on the repayment of the loan it's even worse than a walmart 40 hour/wk job.

But Walmart ain't flying and I doubt they'll bump me up to about $60 -$75 and hour after 10 - 12 years.

So I find myself @ 39 doing what many people I know did at 18 or so.
Get themselves or even their parents into debt for an education.

Although I sell mine to myself, brother and friend that at least I know the job I'll have after I complete my education and that's flying and not to shabby pay once you get down the line.

So far my research has lead me to keep forward with this process.

If any one out there could show me that I can get to the same point of that career using financed funds and the same time frame I'd be willing to listen.

errr read :P

You're right, you are not....it is a school. Just thought I'd ask.

I'm glad you are striving for what you desire, but you must also look at the downside. The pay is not very good except for at a handful of companies, every time you take a new job its on training pay, buy your own hotel and food. After ioe its first year pay maybe $15-18,000 a year and at a base you may not like.
Then there's seniority, if you upgrade or go for a better job its back to the bottom. You might miss a lot of time with your family.
Having said all that, I still enjoy what I do no matter how much the company tries to make it misearable. Sometimes I'm gone for 5 weeks in a row. Money is ok not great. I would do it again though a little smarter next time. Good friends, good timing and good luck can make or break your career.

Sky Bound
 

Pushing forty is a hard time to start flight school. What happiens if another 9/11 or something else blows up? After 9/11, airlines all but stoped hirring. If you look at aviationinterviews.com and go back to 2001 and 2002 you will see pilot's flight time in the 3000 hour range. That's to fly a 1900 or a Dash 8 If something like that happiens agian, you'll be a CFII for 2000 hours. However, I to understand the dream to fly. When I was a CFII and a older student came to me, we had this talk to make sure he or she understood. Good luck....

Otter;

Pushing 40 any career change decision has been tough.
I'm in a nearly no lose situation.
I've worked hard all my life and have a good life because of that.
My company has been sold years ago and I've been enjoying "costly jobs/adventures" since.

But 39 is still young and it takes a lot of money to make it to the "twilight years"

I currently have the freedom to take 2 years to get into a new job like what DCA or similar can open the doors to.

I'm not concerned with making Max Capt @250k a year with a major.
I would think I've done the right thing if I instructed for 20 years @ $20 an hour :P

I'm older and have been successful so I'm lucky in that perspective.
I'm not looking for as much as a younger pilot in training might be.
They have time on their side to get that max Capt job while conversely I don't have the 5 - 10 years to beg, barter for my hours.

My business was successful because I and some others worked about 100 hours a week for nill pay, so I'm used to "paying ones dues" to get where you want.

The missus thinks I already have too many expensive "hobbies".
I do realize my case is different but I think this fits the bill for me.

thanks for the reply !

I'll be in the same boat as you when i retire and go into aviation as my second career...Actually, I'll be 41 when i start my second career in aviation. I'm not worried about it at all...I've worked hard , have served my country, i'll have a retirement so making ends meet won't be an issue...Like you I'm not interested in the $250K per year captain job...I'll be happy working at a regional...

I'm set on going thru All ATPs - on this board and thru others i've heard a lot of good things about them...

Its nice to see another person jumping into aviation after retirement...

V/r,
Cajuns Fan...

I understand why you would say that but so many industries and people were hurt by 9/11 not just the airlines and pilots.

I live in Las Vegas and I saw people losing their jobs and homes from the gaming industry "cracking".

Right about now the only other alternative is to purchase about a 250k Sport Fisherman and set up charter in the Turks and Caicos :P

But then again I'm looking at about the same low income and possible investment failure as "Pilot education" :P

The only difference is the bank likes the idea of Airline Pilot more than Boat Captain ! lol

Again I'm not worried up making my upgrades as fast as possible although I would like to get to decent pay in about 5 years :)

Today at my FAA med exam I had a chance to talk to some pilots as well as the Doc who's been private for years.

One pilot suggested getting turbo prop out of school and enjoy the "flying".
He said if you go right to "auto-pilot jets" you'll miss so much of the "beauty" of flying. He said he now cherishes those days of "flying".

Like now and through out my life I plan on keeping up with my "road scholar" education and if I get some advice I feel right for me I just might take that avenue, like jump to turbo props and not worry about how fast I get the Capt seat and my line till 60 ! *)

I've gained some pretty good advice from my peers and elders over the years and I have always counted that more important than "proper schooling".

DCA Alumni
 

Make sure you are getting all the info....the 65k does not give you 1000TT and 100ME unless you are hired or retained as an instructor. The hiring process at DCA is somewhat confusing and fluctuates rapidly. Even if you are a fortunate student to get hired the wait for standardization class varies between 2-6 months.Also, they may try to send you elsewhere to other campuses i.e. New Bedford, Ma . Now my position was different, I was 20 and did not have the money to sit around in orlando for that period of time nor move and return for the "stands class". So if you are retained Then you can expect your 1000TT and 100ME but plan on spending 3 years in your endeavor (10-14 months for training and 18-24 months instruc).Now the other thing is the lack of experience you will have as a grad through the program, you are looking at around 300 hrs total with maybe 20 hrs of solo time. 300 hrs is plenty of time to learn how it works but when you are with an instructor for 280 of it you are not making decisions and you always have the comfort of knowing there is an instructor to bail you out. So my point is, if you spend that much money there is still the risk of ending up with only 300 hrs for 65K. I went part 61 thru commercial and 141 for multi thru CFII and there is a major difference. 141 such as DCA will get you a level of knowledge that you could only get from other high ranking (expensive) schools but again lack of flight experience. Part 61 is the exact opposite and much less expensive. DCA is still a good school and was a fun place to be excluding the pressure of stage checks and FAA rides, but there was always a big secret about everything and it kind of felt like we were being suckered.

Flight school options
 

Just some FYI. I went to a 141 school at a busy airport in Mississippi just outside of Memphis TN. While it wasn't perfect, they didn't spend a ton of $$$ on advertising and I was able to go through MEI for about 45k. I finished training in one year and was guaranteed an instructor job. After working as an instructor for exactly one year I now have a job flying jets at a great regional and have loved the ride. Liking your flying jobs, like most other jobs, will greatly depend on your personal attitude. Go in with reasonable expectations and remember why you do what you do. DON'T go into this industry with the goal of making lots of $$$. We do it because we love it and I think it's a great job.

This thread made me think of a new guy who flew some IOE with my Captain not too long ago. This F/O position was his first job out of college. ERAU to be specific. (Everything is ERAU don't ya know.) He saw a 'love the smell of jet fuel in the morning' sticker and said, "Yeah, we had those at Riddle". Ummmm...OK. :rolleyes:

He has student loans totaling about $150K for this 19K job and he is happy as a pig in shyte. The smile is permanently affixed across his face and you have to wonder why. OH...maybe it's beacuse he hasn't gotten the first loan payment bill yet. :eek:

Can anyone elaborate on the kind of payoff and monthly payments one would have for a $150K student loan?!?!?

I think anyway you slice it, it's never going to be pretty on a $19K salary. I made some assumptions early in this thread making a guess at what a guy or gal would have to live on after taxes, loan payments, and other expense. The result was based on $60K of debt - I think this guy is SCREWED at $150K. There is no way he'll make the payments.