I don't think doctors and nurses fall under the USDOT drug and alcohol testing program.

Well, when YOU become a Dr., you can work on renaming Alcoholism for the rest of the world.

My father was an alcoholic and a CA for 30 years with a Legacy. He did not drink very often at all...a few times per year. When he did, he was unable to stop. He got caught at the bar of his hotel (1980's) well past the cutoff time and was taken off the flight. Company sent him to rehab for 30 days, came back to the line and never had another drink in his life. He would not even take cough syrup with alcohol in it. Many on here apparently have no knowledge (lack of experience) on this subject.

As for the TSA, if you let them invade your personal space, your fault. Every time this happens, they think they will be the one to catch the next drunk. I have backed them out of my face many, many times as they try and smell for alcohol. I even started taking original (yellow) Listerine just to screw with them sometimes. Always fun to call the supervisor over and ream all who were stupid enough to get involved.

The Police....well you are never REQUIRED to perform a field sobriety test. In a DUI situation, there is nothing you must do. They will probably take you to jail for a blood test, but you can even refuse that. However, IF you refuse the BT in jail, you WILL lose your license for a year. But, no DUI on your record if you were actually drunk. Learn your rights, pay for cab, phone a friend, and never say "I could not do that sober". You just busted yourself.

Comparing an alcoholic to a diabetic? And you say that I don't understand? So with what you're saying, alcoholism just "develops" in a person without any of their own knowledge or actions? Interesting. And don't get me started on not being a doctor; just because a "medical expert" deems it something (often under political pressure from the ama et al) does NOT make it gospel. Think about how asinine your comparison is. I think I'm gonna get off this trip to go home and get my nine year old screened for alcoholism. Although they've never seen alcohol, the "disease" may be lingering in them just as diabetes may. Give me a frickin break. The sooner we stop making
Excuses for people and start showing them the error in their ways, the better off we will ALL be.

Exactly, that is an awesome analogy!

Well if he has so much to gain in your eyes I suggest you go to work drunk tomorrow so your future can be so much brighter.

Genius I know.... we should all do it.

I have a real suggestion though. Quit your job. It sounds like you are bitter and hate it, so do everyone around you a favor and leave. Despite what you may think nobody likes to hear a whiner.

Since there is question as to whether the 'alcoholism' gene may be passed down through the generation through a problem in brain chemistry then maybe you should keep a close eye on your child for any future signs of an 'ADDICTIVE' personality. You are missing a LARGE point here HMP. Some people can withstand the pressure in the brain calling for you to overindulge in some form "feel good" substance and others eventually finally give in to the craving. Addiction is the disease. Alcoholism is just one form of it.

USMCFLYR

Let's not forget, there's a difference between a drunk, and an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings. Just curious as to why no other crew members stopped this? For safety and security reasons, I would have called crew shed for this particular crew member, I doubt he was alone on the crew van?

Children born to alcoholic parents are more predisposed to be alcoholics themselves. It is proven that alcoholism is hereditary as well. So whatever mutated gene that is alcholism, is passed on. Take it for what you will those are just the facts I'd like to add to this post. So to answer your question, yes, alcoholism does develop in certain people without them knowing... Look it up. So yes, the disease may actually be lingering in them, pending their family history.

Your viewpoint is uneducated and incorrect. (I'm pointing out the error in your ways) You are confusing your beliefs with the facts. I suggest you do a little research.

Or your dad should have had a job in some other industry other than transportation if his disease was so challenging. It sounds from the few sentences you wrote that he was able to control his disease and do his job where others have not.

People make mistakes, we are human. I am of the belief that if you do mess up and show up to the plane drunk you should go to jail and loose you job. It doesn't matter if you are suffering from a disease or plain stupidity, You only get one chance IMO.

My college roommate died last week in a car accident. He was driving down the wrong side of the highway in the early hours of the morning. I have felt both sorrow and anger, because he hit anther vehicle head on and killed four innocent people.

Since when do doctors know everything? If they were so good why is do ambulance chasers make so much money??

Well said. Adios whiner. Take your high school diploma and/or aviation degree and go find out what it will do for you in America today. You might just find yourself back here lickity-split with some perspective and a much improved attitude.

I want to invite you, and the others to educate yourself on the HIMS program. I was going to refrain from commenting on this thread but after your post I felt I needed to. My husband got a DUI after his 33rd birthday after a night out with friends (away from duty). As a result his medical was pulled by the FAA (and before you ask it was his first DUI, that's how the FAA works now so I suggest calling a cab if you like your job) anyway after being lost with no help from our company he was referred to the HIMS program, got into treatment, worked extremely hard to earn his medical back and has been sober 517 days and as a new found respect for his family, friends, life, and job. Is addiction a disease? Absolutely. But it can be controlled and you can live a happy healthy life. Some people lose the battle on occasion (Josh Hamilton comes to mind). I'm a FO on the Shuttle certificate and I don't know any more than the rest of you about this particular incident. What I do know is that it hasn't been established if he did in fact show up to work intoxicated, if he was rude to a van driver, if he has a problem with alcohol, or who was on the van with him if anyone at all. Maybe we should all reserve judgement? Wouldn't you appreciate the same?

HookEm,

Excellent post. Best wishes to you and your husband. :)

This is an online pilot forum, this place was built for whining. Besides, the post contained little if any whining. It was more along the lines of this could be a blessing in disguise.

You can tell yourself whatever you have to in order to sleep at night. If you backed yourself into a corner by only having a high school degree or an aviation only degree with no other skills then I agree, good luck. Most pilots I know are smarter than that and have an out, what kind of pilot doesn't leave themselves with a plan B? In ten years I'm sure you'll still be telling yourself that if you can just stick it out for two more years there will be Majors knocking down your door for your services.

Addiction
 

Addiction - a continued involvement with a substance or activity despite the negative consequences associated with it. Wiki

Example - Alcoholism, Aviation Career ect. :) Knowingly pursuing something that does you harm in the long run. We all are guilty of that or else we would have become plumbers or dentists.

Skyhigh

How's that dead horse working out for you, Skyhigh?

Airline Pilot Life
 

The airline pilot life lends itself well to alcoholism. You are always on the road a midst unfamiliar surroundings and strangers most of the time. Biorhythms are perpetually askew. Awake when you should be asleep and trying to sleep when you are alert. Add to that the depression that comes along with the messed up body clock, bad diet, loneliness, loss of self worth and poverty. People tend to self medicate. A little booze can make instant best friends out of those you haven't met before and make a cold concrete hotel room feel like home.

Skyhigh

Good so far
 

Good so far. ;) I don't think the horse is quite dead yet though. How is your horse doing?


Skyhigh

Alcohol
 

Realistically pilots today probably should avoid all alcohol both on and off duty. Just too many ways to blow it. It takes a massive investment to get to an airline. One slip up on a day off can ruin decades of effort. Not worth it.

Don't forget FAR 91.17 While under the influence of alcohol. Not just drunk. Hung over counts too. 8 hours from bottle to throttle means a glass of wine at dinner not a bottle of whiskey then stop right at 8 hours prior to push. A swimmy head and pounding headache effects the safety of flight.

Skyhigh

I quit.
 

Infidelity is the cowards way to say "I don't want to be married to you anymore". Showing up drunk to work as a pilot is the subconscious saying "I have had enough of this profession".

Skyhigh

Excellent post and even as such, I just can't seem to stop... pursuing this career, that is ;)

Yup. Check. All the time. The reality of this sentence really sinks in when you lose your job.

That being said, it's possible to pull yourself out of a rut. It just takes the determination of an addict :D

I got an idea......DON'T BE DRUNK, and it won't matter what a van driver thinks or the TSA is trying to do! Be a responsible, mature adult and you'll have mo worries.

You seem to do a lot of speculating and judging. How do you know the van driver was smiling when he reported the pilot and how do you know all TSA workers dream of catching a drunk pilot?

That kind of prejudice is the same kind that makes people think we make a ton of money doing nothing, drinking all the time, and just complaining for the sake of complaining.

I say kudos to the van driver. Not only did he prevent a major comprise to safety, but he also saved the other pilot from having to explain how he let the flight takeoff without noticing his coworker was drunk.

Just because a quick wikipedia search tells us it's a disease, doesn't make it one. Gramma was a lush (big time). I never thought that it was anything other than her own fault. Let me ask you and usmcflyer: is being a pedophile a disease? When did it happen in this world where personal responsibility became extinct? Al, you sound as if you have personal experience with alcohol abuse (you or loved one); if so, I'm sorry. But, don't patronize them or yourself and do them a disservice by taking responsibility and putting it elsewhere. My personal beliefs? Life is perception, and I'm not buying into everything people tell me (as you do). And as far as my kids having "the gene", well if I raise them right to be responsible adults, they will never have to worry about getting the "disease".

You're missing the point: it's not his fault that he was drunk.........it's a disease.

You actually don't think that kids who have been raised "right" haven't ended up being addicts. Wikipedia huh? Is that where you turn for your research? You are so far out in left field on this one HMP that it is actually sad that you are so uneducated.

And to answer your other question, I'll use part of your research method:
From Wiki:
Of course with your expertise in the field I'm sure you could dispute all 128 references used in this article alone.

USMCFLYR

It is a problem that can be controlled - and part of that control is responsibility.
You seem to miss this point and believe that the two are at odds with each other.

So....besides the way that you chose to believe - what sort of proof are you willing to offer to those of us who disagree with your view? Any research out there from those whom you don't think are just trying to lead us down some rose trimmed path?

USMCFLYR

I think we're getting stuck on the term "disease".

Some would consider addictions, shyness, shell shock, tourettes, and poverty to be diseases.

Others would consider a disease to be something like AIDS, Measles, Leprosy, or a burning case of the clap. If you look with a microscope you can see bacteria or a virus or something. If you get it on you, you can get infected. If you eradicate it from the body, you are cured.

I fall into the second group of people. When someone says alcoholism, smoking, kleptomania, or obesity are diseases, I find myself thinking "how can it be a disease when it's a behavior?" Do germs make you crave french fries? If gambling is a disease, than could laziness be a disease? Is child abuse a disease? Is aging a disease? Is that guy covered with tattoos from head to toe because he has a disease? How can someone who hasn't had a drink in 30 years still be sick today?

I blame the doctors for confusing things. If I break my leg, I have a medical condition. That doesn't make it a disease. If I cut myself intentionally or fear shoes, I have a mental condition. That doesn't make it a disease.

I have no doubt that alcoholism is a disorder, a condition, whatever; but when they classify it as a "disease" they're rubbing my paradigm the wrong way.

Of course I don't have any alcoholics or doctors in my family, so I guess I'm double ignorant.

It really does not matter what we call it. Let MDs discuss the terminology on their forum. Flying while drunk is a problem. Get the pilot off the plane and off the line. Have that person go to court where a judge can give them a slap in the face and some extra motivation to get better. Go get treatment and convince the FAA you are safe to fly. Then send your resume out and interview. If someone sees all the work that person has done to get back in the industry and likes them so much they are willing to hire someone with an alcohol offense on their record, good for them.

If someone really wanted to make a pilot's life bad, telling authorities he was drunk is a good way. Why not let this all play out before the crucifixions begin?

I would rethink that a bit. My parents raised three sons all the same way, all with the same genes, and only one of us has been an alcoholic for nearly 40 years.

As one friend of Bill W. described it, "The need for a drink is akin to being held underwater as your breath runs out. Eventually you suck in the water even though you know it will kill you. Recovery is as easy as learning not to inhale."

Instead of arguing your opinion, why don't you just look it up and get the facts for yourself? :confused:

He got it right. You did not.

What part of this "sickness"(rolls eyes) says "After I drink alcohol because I can't help myself I MUST get behind the wheel of a car or behind the controls of an airplane"? You wanna drink yourself drunk, go ahead, I don't care. Getting up and strapping yourself to a machine ain't part of the "sickness", it's a crime.

Let's hope so

You got that right ;)

Not exactly. If you blow higher than a .15 or refuse the test, you medical application is deferred to Oke City. Does that mean you automatically lose your medical? No. If you did blow, and you blew high, your medical is likely to be revoked. If you refuse the test, you must successfully jump through some hoops to have your medical issued. And if you blow less than .15, your AME is authorized to make a decision without a deferral.

Having said all that, yes, by all means, call a cab.

There is certainly such thing as alcohol addiction. Call it a disease, or a behavior, or whatever you like. It's semantics and it's irrelevant. Those with an addiction to alcohol are at risk of losing EVERYTHING, hurting themselves, hurting others. And it's not because they are bad people. It's a complicated, multi-faceted problem which is not well understood.

Agree with many of the things that you are saying here Boomer - but if you could see that the brain chemistry (something you can see and track) is different in an addict and if you can see the brain and the body act differently when stimulated with a substance would it make a difference to you? The difference here that many may be getting hung up on is that this disease can be controlled at stated earlier and that control CAN BE in the hands of the person once they get help and started down that road to recovery (thus a person's behavior can play a bigger part).

USMCFLYR

My parents raised me the "right way". Didnt help much. I still became a pilot.

I have a hard time calling it a disease as well, but I am not going to knock it. People much smarter than I have come up with that term for it. But like all diseases, alcoholism does not discriminate. It does not matter who it effects. You can raise your kids the right way, teach them the responsible way, but thats all you can do. You cant sit over their shoulder for the rest of their life saying "dont drink." They may get to college, have some really great times drinking and decide on their own they love it. They keep at it hard enough, long enough, guess what happens? Alcoholism.

I read in a big book once that "addicts and alcoholics do not have a normal off switch in their brains. A normal person will put their hand on a hot stove and never touch it again. Addicts and alcoholics will continue to touch the hot stove." For pilots, that means continued drinking despite negative consequences. Get one dui under your belt, or one public intox or one alcohol related arrest and if you continue to drink, you are putting your hand on that hot stove. While they may not be a full blown, cant stop at one drink, alcoholic, they have a drinking problem that needs treatment.

I'll grant you the disease for the part where you can't control yourself and keep drinking.

But not so much for the part where you wake up the next morning, shave, shower, but on a uniform and take the van to the airport.

It is obvious that the individuals here that understand the disease is a disease are educated about it. Those that don't belive its a disease have little to no information/education on the subject. They are simply tossing out judgement. It's APC though. Carry on.....

There is a difference between alcoholism and irresponsibility.

I know of a pilot of a well known regional airline who was a self acknowledged alcoholic, had sought treatment and who had successfully maintained complete abstinence for years. Then one day the van driver reported alcohol on his breath after driving him to the airport for a late afternoon show. He was tested and blew way over.

I do not know the circumstances behind this latest incident in OMA. None of us knows whether the problem was /is clinical alcoholism or just a case of partying too hard for too long the night before. If the former case it is good that he will now get the help he needs; if the latter he will get a harsh lesson.

But none of us knows which is the case and none of us is in a position to make judgements with regard to why this pilot ended up in the situation in which he now finds himself.

For the first 35 years of my life, I would have told you a pedophile was a sick individual who deserved to be beheaded at all costs. Then for the last 2 years of seeing commercials of major corporations marketing short shorts that say "sexy" across the ass to 12 year olds and panties in the pre teen department at major department stores that are lace and say "sexy" or some other sexual innuendo, I think some of these guys might actually have a "society made me do it" halfway legit defense. See next response for "the gene"

This remark goes along with brain mapping/chemistry. Hotmama pilot, if someone commits murder while on a doctor prescribed prescription drug, and blames the drug, would you say he's full of crap? I would have personally found him guilty and given him the chair until I saw what happened to my grandfather one night. He was a Marine in the Pacific in WWII. He had a massive stroke and about a year later when a new dr changed his meds, the first night he went to bed after the new medication he went to the kitchen and got a large butcher knife and put it on the bedstand next to him. When asked why he did that, his response was "tha Japs are coming I saw some of thier snipers across the yard" and other war-hallucinations, 50 years after the war! Had the wrong individual entered the house, or a family member at the wrong time, oops! So he didn't have "disease" but was on a legal substance that made him act the way he did. If I'm ever on a jury now and some veteran claims his meds made him kill someone, well I light have some reasonable doubt now after seeing it firsthand...