Proficiency Check Unsat
 

I'm relatively new to 121 and just busted my first one. I've never busted any check rides before including my 121 initial. I understand that it's a "checking event", but my question is if most 121 employers consider this to be just as negative as a failure for a rating or certificate. Obviously I'm new to this stuff. Thanks.

Edit: for clarification, this was during "recurrent training"

I think it's a PRIA porting event. FWIW. Sorry to hear about that tough.

Yep, it's a checkride failure and will be on your PRIA. I can't speak for how it will be viewed, but I believe it's grouped the same as other license checkride failures.

Thanks. Now I understand why they call it career day. 30 more years of this and not being able to screw up again...at least not without trouble getting hired somewhere else. How on earth do you not psych yourself out? lol

You aren't the first guy to bust a PC. If it's your only bust, it probably won't matter by the time you move on. Just make sure you can tell them what happened and what you learned from it when you interview next. Good luck, and chin up! It ain't the end of the world.

^^^^ what he said.

Don't let one bad PC get ya down. Everyone has bad days. Learn from it, move on, keep your chin up, and be honest if/when asked about it during any future interviews

What happened....any particular reason or just a bad day?

Just curious.....
It has been demonstrated in the past that companies will bust people on their rides in an effort to force them to stay employed at their airline. In fact the old TWA application used to ask (if you checked "yes" for the box indicating if you had a 121 recurrent failure) if it was at a particular regional carrier. You may be in that same situation.

Curious to know where you are at. Other than that, busted rides happen, especially in with the "new" FAA coming down so hard on all of us crappy regional pilots who are barely able to fly without crashing.

I had a buddy bust his proficency oral reccently...He then did a mock oral and passed with flying colors... He did a second oral and they busted him for questions most people wouldn't know.... I think he is screwed in his 121 career..Great pilot who never even got to touch the sim...Really sucks that a instructor has that much power over a persons career...what do you guys think?

The oral went well, no problems. There was a miscommunication between myself and the check airman acting as PM. (Another one was actually giving the ride). The PM told me he was going to deactivate certain deice items, while leaving others still on. I was doing something else and he had the aircraft at the time. I looked up and acknowledged what he did. The CA in the back only heard part of this and thought that I had thoughtlessly left certain items on when they were not required anymore. He then gave me a failure where one of the abnormal checklist items specifically referenced the one piece of deice equipment that the PM had "forgotten" to turn off. We were going to be descending right back into icing, so when I got to the conditional statement in the checklist I interpreted it as "if you are using it" vs. "if it is required by conditions". The latter is what it actually said, so I can understand why the check airman wasn't satisfied with the procedure. What bothers me is that the PM told me he was leaving items on, and the check airman never heard him. (this part was clarified after I was failed) Despite what happened, I know there is no recourse or going back. I'm just wondering how this affects me going forward, and as per my original question, if a PC failure is seen as just as bad or worse than a pt91 bust to a potential employer.

If you think an instructor has been unfair it might be worth mentioning to CP or someone because there may have been other complaints. I've seen guys removed from training for being unreasonable.

Talk to your union's training committee. Did they let you retry what was missed in the sim before failure?

Good luck finding another job in the next 5 years, you will have to explain what happened at every interview.

First of all don't listen to Natca... Dunno what their problem is. One busted ride isn't a big deal. In fact I'd venture to say 70-80% of pilots have at least one busted ride (PPL, Instrument, CFI, RPC, etc).

Secondly... If what you said about the situation is what truly happened without leaving anything out or embellishing it sounds like calls to your CP and ALPA reps are in order. No one should be set up (purposely or accidentally) for failure on any checking event.

FYI, the story you wrote is not the story you want to tell @ your next interview. Too long, for starters. It also sounds like its not your fault, but rather the LCA's fault for not hearing the whole conversation, or the seat support guys fault for leaving certain items on. That may very well be the case, but you can't say that in an interview. I've quoted the parts you need to take out.
Here's your new story:

I mistakenly allowed certain de-icing items to be left on when they were not supposed to be on during an abnormal checklist. I misinterpreted a conditional statement in the checklist as "if you are using it" vs. "if it is required by conditions". I learned that checklist discipline is important. The checklist is there to enhance safety, and it is important for me to use every resource at my disposal in a situation to bring the highest level of safety to my flying. I haven't had any training issues since. . . . Or something like that.

It's my fault, this is what I learned from it, and I'm a better pilot for it. I am safe, I have good CRM, and I don't have a record of training failures. Mention the failure, take ownership of it, and then spend the majority of your answer on why you're a better pilot b/c of it. The training failure doesn't define you, it enhances your skill set.

Any pilot who's been in this industry for awhile either has a checking failure or deserved one, but was lucky enough to not get one through a benevolent evaluator or one who just didn't catch the mistake. It's not a big deal to make a mistake. It's how you handle the mistake and what you learn from it that is the key, especially in an interview.

Could't have been explained any better.

Check rides should be learning experiences not "got ya" experiences. There isn't a pilot out there that couldn't be busted if the check airman want to bust them. It sounds like your situation was BS and the check pilot was making it up as he went along.

So you were running abnormal checklist and the PM was actually PF at the time. Why would he be doing anything other than flying? You said you were doing something else. Shouldn't it have been the checklist since in fact you were now PM?

It seems there may be more to the story.

I would just lie. They don't actually check PRIA. That would cost money. I requested my NDR record and it said no company have ever requested my NDR record. It should have been checked 3 times by now. Cheap companies do cheap background checks. If it is a good non-cheap company then tell the truth.

As a Training Center Evaluator myself (part 142), it seems as though the guy giving your ride may have strayed a little from the PTS. If I stray from the PTS, it certainly would NOT be a bust, but a learning experience. I will NEVER put a guys job on the line during checkrides. I hate Check Airman that do that. We trust you guys for 6 months to a year at a time flying these jets around the country, but when you come in for a sim check all of a sudden you are not up to standards? BS! This $hit needs to stop.

Don't listen to this. Although the PRIA requests do cost money and they wont pay for a request to interview you, they will do one if they eventually hire you. If they find out after the fact they will have no problem removing you from class. Now try explaining a PC failure and a firing...

You can just lie at the next interview about getting fired. They won't check. It cost money. Eventually you will get to an airline where they won't find out. If they find out just say you quit and walked off the job and they must have been mad and fired you after you already quit.

No. No. No.

I believe he is an FO taking a recurrent PC by himself so he was referring to the check airman who was sitting seat support for him in the left seat as the PM for the whole flight.

Regional,
Sorry to hear about your experience, man. It sucks that you use your judgement when the checklist says "as required" and the guy signing the papers thinks you should have done something else.

As far as future employment I wouldn't worry about it too much. Come up with a good story about what you did wrong and like others have said make most of the story about how you have become a better pilot because of it and no one will care about 1 failure.

what equipment are you on?

Crack pipe that is the worst advice ever!

With advice like this, who needs enemies.... Crack, where do you work exactly?

McDonald's.

Regional,

One improperly run checklist does not generally result in a recurrent check ride failure unless it was so poorly run that the CKA does not think that you can be retrained, or you had already used up your allowed two TTP (Train to proficiency) items. Had you already had unsat items during the check ride that were retrained?

Sniper is soooo right. Not only is what he said the right thing to say in an interview, it's the right way to look at these things in general. If you take the constructive attitude, and it sounds like you are already leaning that way, and then express it in the way sniper described, you might just turn an unsat into a positive moment in your next interview.

Every airline I know of checks PRIA stuff from the previous employer. At my current employer they actually had three different ways of checking and used all three (Our VP Flight Ops was asked, they had our records available via their computer and they got the PRIA copies). The worst situation in the world would be to get your dream job, then get fired for lying, even though it was something that they would have hired you with anyway.

One failed check ride is not the kiss of death. In fact, some airlines are kind of famous for handing out pink slips. For a while the bust rate on ASA's E120 Captain upgrade got up near 80%. Those doing the hiring at major airlines are usually selected for the job because they are some of the sharpest and nicest Captains at that airline.

Standards should be standardized. Anyone who has been in this business for a while know standards are all over the place and the APD / LCA does seem to give you a break for having a lot of experience compared to the relatively tight realm of testing for initial upgrades (either that, or they have managed to teach me something over the years).

With the advice you provide, I'm not surprised. :D

Seems like a well timed incomplete might have served given what he told us. Frankly, I'd rather incomplete a candidate than send them to a ride, or get them a bust on their record. Of course that takes a LCA / APD who's willing to take the time and not all will.

I was an Interview Capt for a 121 airline before and let me tell you from experience you are fine. Yes this will be on your PRIA for the next 5 years but it is not the end of your life. When I interviewed I would always ask the question about failures on Check Rides(No one does PRIA checks until you are hired to expensive). If you busted your CFI, I did think much about it because most people do the first time. If you busted a training event I would listen to make sure you took responsibility for your mistakes, with out spending 30 mins telling me the whole story, and that you learned something from the bust and have fixed the issues. Now if you made excuses, tried to place blame on the other pilot, or have multiple failures in the same aircraft we had issues.
Just be honest and make your explanation simple, We had a lack of CRM, It was just one of those days I was off my game, etc then conclude with you were retrained and passed with flying colors and since then you pay extra attention to things so that does not happen online then you will see all the interview board smiling and nodding their heads. Remember the 3 main things I would look at could I handle doing a trip with you,
can you be trained( 1 bust does not disqualify you from this), finally how do you handle change.
Good Luck!

Don't get what people are talking about, "too expensive." In many cases they are free.

My guess is that airlines don't build a file of what would be confidential and personal information on people they do not intend to hire.

The real expense is the HR people to do the paperwork. Records from the FAA and other airlines are cheap (never paid more than $5).

As everyone here has stated (including your good advice), honesty is the best policy and the applicant has nothing to worry about.

As for checkride advice, slow down, don't get rushed, be methodical ... fly the box like you would your airplane.

As in do another checklist? No, he said to look at it again. I explained my reasoning, and he failed me. (i guess because he thought I was oblivious??)

Yes, I am well aware, and I wouldn't even consider telling it like that. Thanks for the advice.

I was setting up the box and briefing the approach. That is why he had controls. I was purposely being vague because it is not my intention to call anyone out by referencing the aircraft or company. Also, I wrote that post early this morning... zzzz

He said nothing about retraining until after it was done. The form he filled out also referenced programming the approach (I let nerves get the better of me) because I couldn't get back to the page that allowed me to change the transition fix. He said, something to the effect of, "if you can't find it, just clear the whole thing out." So that's what I did. This happened before the checklist thing.

As for TTP items, I can't find anything mentioning it in the contract or manuals that I have.

The word "incomplete" never left his mouth unfortunately.

Little harsh there..... don't ya think?