Strait Pay
 

Strait pay is the only way to fairly evaluate ones compensation. Selling ones days off, adding per Diem or giving your self over to the enemy for draft pay just doesn't count.

If you were to use all that then when comparing to other professions you would have to add in all the income opportunities that they have as well.

Firefighters work an honest 8 or 9 days a month. In a west coast city they start out at 55K or higher. Add to it all the overtime days they could work and (given all the time off) the outside jobs they could have. It would explain the jet boats, big trucks and vacations they have.

Police also start out at a healthy wage and also have many opportunities for overtime for the city or private events. Even in my small burg they top 62K after two years and work 4 twelve hour shifts and have the next four days off.

Don't forget teachers. They get two weeks in December, one week in the spring every legal holiday and the entire summer off. In my state the listed average pay for teachers is 54K. Add to that a second summer job and now you are talking some serious dough.

Lastly all of these jobs come complete with a state funded retirement plan. Add all that up and it would bury your average regional job even after you have sold off your life to the company reach those inflated fantasy incomes.

SkyHigh

You mean "straight."

Everybody does what they want in life. Some people want to be cops others want to be firefighters. It just depends on the person and what they want. I like aviation and sadly it does not pay well. What can I do? I can either go and do something else or I can stick to it knowing the risks. To me money is important, but even more important is the thought of doing something I like. I’m going to study Finances/Accounting and do that on the side; yes you can make fun of me, and say that I’m working two jobs to keep the dream alive. In the end we all reach an old age in which we which we had done this and that. I feel aviation is something I want to do. Thanks to this forum I will enter aviation knowing the risks and better informed. I still have about 3 years of college left and time to plan out my future. My career can be done on the go, and the free travel will only benefit when dealing with clients who are all over the place. Have you seen most doctors, they hate their jobs but love their BMW’s. I want to love my job and hate my corolla. LOL. Anyways I’m really planning my future out. One thing I consider to be really important for pilots is having that second degree active and handy it will help in case of furloughs or just if your short on money.

But I don't want to be any of those. Should I go be a teacher just so I can have the summer off? Should I go be a firefighter or cop just for the pay? Where do you get this information? Keep in mind that most of the general public thinks that pilots make huge sums of dough and have a great number of days off. Have you fallen into this same trap in appraising the careers that you mention?

If you think you can plan 3 years in the future in this profession then you are kidding yourself. What you can do is prepare and be ready with a plan B if the need arises, thats about as close as you can get to planning.

Why do teachers get three months off?

So they can forget about the last nine!




As a former high school teacher, I will gladly take 20K per year sitting in the right seat over having to deal with:

30 year old parents telling me I need to do something about their kid because they couldn't control him

High school students who couldn't tell time and didn't see the need to learn

18 year old kids who didn't understand why they would not graduate eventhough the had ZERO credits

Having to send home-school stuff to the five or six (out of 90) girls who were pregnant

But the last straw for me was having to stop four males who had cornered a female and were about to...........

True, last month my time away from base was 376.7 hours. Compare that to 160 hours for a regular 9-5 job, well you see what I mean.

Time away from base means time away from family, and making more income.
Duty time(time from report to release) I figured was around 165 hours. 15 nights in hotel beds, figure 8 hrs of sleep for those nights = 120 hrs. 165 hours duty time and 120 hours of sleep = 285 total productive time. 376-285=91 hrs.
So for 91 hours last month I sat in a hotel room by myself awake.
Total time at a hotel was 211 hours+/- shuttle van time. Also this does not include time sitting around between flight's at the airport.

91 hours of wasted time.

None of this time includes commuting.
So If I add the duty time 165 hrs, to the unproductive time 91 hrs, that = 256 hrs divide that by 35, my hourly rate, you get 13.67 dollars an hour. Remember that I took out 120 hours for sleep.
Worth all the sacrifice? You be the judge.

91 hours in one month is a lot of time, thats more than 2 weeks for a regular 9-5 job. Figure that as over time for a regular job, that would be a nice check.

Skyhigh. I am not condoning the (fuedal systemesque)ways of the regionals, but just why can't you consider per diem as pay? If you were at home, you would still have to buy your own food.

Excellent post............and very depressing :( It's time for a revolution! Now if we just knew how to start it.

It's just the name of the game, you don't go into the career expecting to be gone only 40 hours a week.

Per Diem
 

Per Diem is not pay. It is compensation for the extra costs associatied with being away from home. The hotel room that the company provides is not pay either.


SKyHigh

Satisfaction
 

As a disillusioned airline pilot I had a few years to examine other lines of work and still do. As with flying I have tried to compare careers in the most unbiased manner possible. Compensation rates of other professions are public record.

Pilots like to manipulate the facts in order to support a reality that doesnt exist. They falsify incomes by counting things that they shouldn't in order to support a fantasy. Unless you fully take stock of what you earn against other similar professions it is difficult to know what your true value is.

A simple test is to see how people with other comparable careers live versus a typical regional airline pilot. To me this acid test is proof positive. Pilots I know work constantly and live in starter homes if they are lucky. The firefighters whom I am friends with have speed boats, families, dirt bikes and live middle class lifestyles. Only you can decide if the sacrifices are worth it.

SkyHigh

Have you thought about becoming a geography teacher?



Gibraltar...


Dover...


Bosporus...


The Dardenelles...


Magellan...


Bering...


Malacca...


Taiwan...



You could explore the economic, political, and military importance of straits... you could challenge students to memorize all the straits in the U.S. You could complete a graduate degree and become known as Dr. Strait, and that would definitely boost your strait pay. :D


Oh, I see possibilities here.



;)




.

Name of the game? Want this lifestyle, be my guest. With an attitude like yours, the schedules WILL get worse. If you want to be a part of this industry, please come with an attitude to improve the quality of life. Dont be such a pushover.....

I have no idea what the point of this thread is. I am making a very comfortable living doing what I love to do and in a few more years I'll be going into the six figures. How many can say that about their jobs? Ask any 9-5er see what they say about their job.

Yeah I love my job when I actually fly.
Of the 376 hours I was gone last month I flew 50 myself. Of the 50 that were my leg, actual hand flying was problay a total of 6 hours, figuring 10 min's a flight at 35 flights.

I was with my wife 3 hours a night for the nights home since she works late.

I spent 91 unproductive hours in a hotel by my self with no compensation.

I think the point is, flying for a regional compared to other jobs blows. (note, no sugar coating). We should never let our love for flying be part of our compensation package.

And yes I am working on another carreer.

if you're doing this for the strict love of hand flying an airplane, then you should probably look into a different type of flying, as no airline, regional or major is going to give you that satisfaction, unless you're flying a nice piece of historic equipment.

Truth is, millions of individuals hate their job, and millions of individuals will retire from the same job they hate. Typically, all we do on here is ***** about how little we're getting paid, although i'm sure we heard what we'd make in the interview, and then after we make crappy pay, we complain about it a lil' more...all said and done, i'd rather not hear the complaining unless someone's doing something to fix the problem.

Also, what good does it do complaining if you're not even in the freakin industry anymore?

LOL that was stait.... er strate.... (oh scr@w it) RIGHT to the point :)

my uncle was a cop in ny and after 25 years on the force with overtime he only made 80 grand. 25 years at a regional makes more than that. In fact after you upgrade you make that with in 10 years at a regional

Name of the game is exactly what it is and no, I don't want 'this' lifestyle or to be a part of 'this' industry. I'm pursuing a career in accounting. How can you call me a pushover for pointing out that you shouldn't expect to be 'at the office' just 40 hours a week? Is that a false statement? What do you care about my attitude anyway, arn't you on your way out?

Give me about 7 years.

Cop
 

It depends on where your uncle lived and how much overtime he took on. Regional pilots love to atrificially inflate their pay but if your were to evaluate it based upon STRAIGHT pay then it would not be great. Lets not forget the lowly paid early years spent as a CFI and the unstable nature of the airlines. I think it is unlikely that one in the regionals can expect a smooth 30 year career. Your uncle can bank on an unbroken ride to a great government funded retirement. In the long run he will earn far more.

Skyhigh

Problem
 

I think this thread is doing something to fix the problem. If regional pilots will stop and figure out how little they are getting paid in comparison to other professions then perhaps we will effect change. Self deception does no good. An honest attempt to calculate the real compensation of a career at the regionals I think is a first step.

SkyHigh

Yeah and you also get into the game expecting 150K at a major as an FO some day not to mention captain pay.

Have you ever actually had a REAL job? Or did mommy and daddy pay for your Purdue ed and then you were hired by a regional? just curious, cause I suspect that most of the peops on this board have never been 9 to 5 ers. The nine to five life blows, no matter what skyhigh says. And we all aren't fortunate enough like him to get a loan from our in-laws to start our own company.

Thats not true. I can hand fly as much as I care to...sometimes more if the autopilot is broken. I always handfly atleast 1 full leg per month. Many times the autopilot isn't clicked on until after level off unless I am feeling extra lazy that day. If you happen to go to a BE1900 operator most of the time you have no choice...you WILL hand fly because there is NO autopilot installed.

Sorry
 

Nice one !!! But sorry no help here. I like your brass though, no matter how misgiuded.

SkyHigh

Stay
 

Well you had better stay where you are since most regionals require the use of automation.

Skyhigh

Why is that? Don't they want to leave the decision to use autopilot or not up to the CA?

-LAFF

Philosophy of Automation
 

I can't remember the words verbatim however in the opening pages of the FOM at Horizon Air it stated the companies "Philosophy of Automation". The statement basically was that the aircraft is equipped with millions of dollars in the best of automation technology. The pilots job was to manage that automation effectively and in its highest form. It did allow for hand flying of approaches in VFR weather in VFR conditions at the captains discretion.

Some of the benefits to this approach are that both pilots can easily see what the other intends. Sometimes it is difficult to guess what another is thinking and false assumptions can be made. The proper use of automation and planning can easily be verified by a few button pushes. In effect both pilots are able to be fully engaged in flying the plane.

In addition I read a study once that proclaimed that IFR hand flying took around 70 to 100% of ones mental focus to accomplish. By having the AP on the pilot is then freed to take on other more important functions like traffic avoidance and planning.

Hand flying is really a thing of the past as far at the airlines go. It is an emergency procedure to be saved for extreme situations and most landings. The AP goes on upon reaching 1000' and off at 200 on approach. Even in the simulator you are encouraged to use the AP as much as possible. Some of the more modern planes are not even airworthy if the AP is in op.

SKyhigh

Ah, but you are forgetting about the ability to hand fly to maintain proficiency. I can hand fly every leg if I choose to (for proficiency of course). The captain can ask me not to, but he cannot require me not to.

For those of you that are complaining about spending so much time in a hotel room, don't do it. Get out and explore your surroundings. There is nothing worse than someone slam-clicking and missing some great experiences. If you give me enough time there, I can find something fun to do in every city.

The answer is yes. I put myself through college, took out my student loans like most.
Maybe this is where I find the problem. When I worked ONE of my "9-5" jobs, I would be gone for two weeks, sometimes three at a time. We would average 100 hours a week, 60 hrs was overtime. That 60 hours of overtime is where I made my real money. I worked hard, and was compensated fairly for it.
So last month I sat in my hotel for 211 hrs, 91 hrs I figured I was awake twiddling my thumbs. I’m not trying to be negative here, just the comparison was made between a regional pilot and a firefighter. And you got it.
I made ok money for the month, but the time away was not worth it.

BTW, I have worked Two part time jobs since becoming a "professional" pilot.
Look my wife and I gave it one more year. It has been taking a toll on our relationship, and to me our relationship is more important than flying a plane.
I think some of the new guys should be aware of what they are getting themselves into. For me its just not my cup of tea. Others love this lifestyle, and that is great for them.

To whoever wondered why I care about the industry, if I am working on a way out.
Its kind of like selling a car you have put a lot of time and money into, you know you are going to part with it, but its still your baby. And what else is there to do when I sit in my hotel room for 211 hours a month. I work on my new business and read fourms........:)

Yes, the unbroken ride of wondering if your next encounter with a person will be the one that kills you. Personally, I think the pay rates for police officers is way too low, considering the daily risks they take on.

Ha ha, I tried that to.

Yeah in San Deigo, I hung out with some bums at at the harbor for a while one night cause I was lonely. Pretty cool watching some guys dive for lobsters.
Going out on the town would be a lot more fun if you were single , like the good old days.:D

I am at Eagle. Jumpseating other airlines I've seen many people hand fly up until cruise (the boring stuff) as well, including mainline. If it is required to use the autopilot then why is it allowed to be MELed? You are in no way required to use the autopilot. Infact, I encourage as many people as possible to not get lazy and use the autopilot for everything. Try and do some hand flying during the month. After all, the autopilot is just a machine and subject to failure. You better be able to fly that plane in the event it does.

Poppycock!






.

Since when did the regional airlines become a career choice to begin with? Yeah it's hard to get where I'm at but it's not like it doesn't ever happen. A regional airline has always been and probably will always be a stepping stone, period. Nobody should be thinking about them in any other fashion. So to start some silly comparison to other professions is simply misguided because the regionals shouldn't be end of that profession.

In three years of marriage my wife and I have spent a little over 14 months together. Military life also takes it toll. However, I get compensated well and I know I'm making a dent in the war on terror. I honestly feel I'd fit in well at the airlines. I'm use to the long hours / days away from home. My family is already use to it and support my life/career decisions.

I have an 19 month old daughter that I haven't seen since she was 14 months old.

-LAFF

Here are some real numbers, comparing pay. Straight Pay. Not using made up numbers that cannot be proven. All these numbers are from the Department of Labor.

Police:
Median annual earnings of $45,210 in May 2004

The only Police (on average of course) who made anywhere near 100k are Police Chiefs and Deputy Chiefs, and some Captains.

Firefighters:
Median hourly earnings of fire fighters were $18.43 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $13.65 and $24.14. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $9.71, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $29.21. Median hourly earnings were $18.78 in local government, $17.34 in the Federal Government, and $14.94 in State government.

Median annual earnings of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $58,920 in May 2004

Median annual earnings of fire inspectors and investigators were $46,340 in May 2004

Fire Chiefs, on average, make less than Police Chiefs.

Teachers:
Median annual earnings of kindergarten, elementary, middle, and secondary school teachers ranged from $41,400 to $45,920 in May 2004.

Pilots:
Median annual earnings of commercial pilots were $53,870 in May 2004

Try Medford OR. Dairy Queen is about the most fun you can have for less than a dollar.

Skyhigh

Fire and Police Wages
 

Again it is important to compare apples to apples. Most regional airline jobs are located in urban areas. The government website has some numbers that are misleading. It takes into consideration every firefighter and police job both rural and city. In my small town 100 miles from Seattle civil servants earn perhaps half of what their urban counterparts make.

Here is a starting wage for Montclair California police job.

$4,451 - $5,410
($4,239/mo. salary while enrolled in the 20-week Police Academy)
City Pays 9% of Employees' Portion of 3% at 55 PERS Contribution

Here is firefighter pay off the city of Los Angeles web Site:

Starting salary $46,729 - $64,686

BENEFITS
Thirteen paid holidays per year.
Sixteen days paid vacation to start.
Family health and dental coverage.
Pension plan

In addition I had a conversation about an hour ago with a plumber at one of my job sites. He told me that after three years as an apprentice a fully licensed plumber earns 50-60K in residential and 60-70K commercial as a Non-union employee. In addition they have the ability to start their own company and earn much more.

In any case it sure beats four years in college to be followed by years of slave wages before finally reaching plumber wages in your mid-30's



SkyHigh