Magic
 

To me success in aviation is one part determination, one part connections and one part luck.

Perhaps timing was generous for getting a slot in the military when it was your turn and then it was your military connections that made the transition to the airlines a profitable one? Timing might have been good for your trip through the military but it seems that currently the military is in the process of reducing its pilot supply. Hopefuls today will struggle or see their dreams go unfulfilled. No amount of effort can open a closed door like that.

de727ups put into words perfectly.

"That there is a significant chance that, no matter what you do, you might not make it to the top of the career. It's like a pyramid, the closer to the top you shoot for, the less likely you'll make it. If you'd be happy in the middle, then the more likely you'll make it. Not everyone who simply "wants it", is gonna get there. There is a certain amount of luck and timing involved that you can't control."

It takes three parts. I only had one and a half.

SkyHigh

What have you done to separate yourself from the crowd? You graduated in the top of your class, never failed a check ride, 90% on your FAA exams.... So you're book smart... so what... what are you like outside the cockpit?

What have you done outside of aviation to make yourself more marketable? Serve on any committees at any of your airlines? Any volunteer work outside of your job?

From everything gathered on here SkyHigh, its all about YOU! Even if you are a Rhodes scholar, everything that you have put on here is poor poor me. Companies want to see that you have something to talk about on the flight deck besides your training record.

Just my thoughts... For all you younger pilots out there, do something besides go to work and fly. Volunteer work looks awesome on your resume...

Outside?
 

Sure I have done much outside of the flight deck. I was a part time ground school instructor at Horizon Air, volunteer firefighter, built a business and family. I have glowing letters of recommendation from almost every place I worked. Besides book smarts I have a broad range of civilian pilot jobs and experiences.

My efforts on this forum are intended to provide a service to others.

SkyHigh

That's what probably did you in. I know for a fact that if your reputation at Horizon will follow you to Alaska. Maybe someone there shot you down.

What about that place in Alaska?

Welcome for the most part. I'm sure

Alaska Air
 

[QUOTE=mike734;77215]That's what probably did you in. I know for a fact that if your reputation at Horizon will follow you to Alaska. Maybe someone there shot you down.

I have glowing letters of recommendation from every manager that I had at Horizon Air including one of the base chief pilots.


What about that place in Alaska?

If anything they might of played a roll, but that was out of my hands and another example of how you can do everything right and still get shot out of the saddle.

My guess is that my interview came right at the end of hiring in January of 2002. They had decided to cancel all future classes and I was odd man out.

SkyHigh

Positive SkyHigh
 

[QUOTE=SkyHigh;77242]What happened to hiring over 400 during the next 4yrs? What happened to the positive SkyHigh? http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=1221
This was just about a year ago!

Nothing ?
 

[QUOTE=favila008;77244]400 is not a lot of hiring. It is a lot for Alaska Air, but when you consider that most of the country is looking to the few companies that are hiring it is not that great. Nothing has changed. If Alaska Air calls tomorrow I will be there but I have better odds of being hit by a meteorite.

SkyHigh

considering the rate of hire at swa and so on yes 400 IS alot

Damnation! Now, I am confused!

Your central theme has been one of the inability to reach a meaningful financial position in the airlines in a reasonable period of time...and now you are saying that you would chuck it all to start off as a probationary F/O making $35 an hour?

What gives?

Sir,

Thats a loaded question...We all know it...I had a difficult time giving up on flying to concentragte on family / career and I only have a PPL. Its fun flying by yourself even if its a C-172 going from Langley AFB to Nags Head, NC. I miss it - but I have to put my money into other things right now...

I can only imagine what it must be like for someone who has devoted the better part of their life to aviation.

I'm sure Sky will answer your question adequately.

-LAFF

For you and I, perhaps so.

But not for SH.

He has consistently advocated that continuing to pursue the golden ring cannot pay off for the typical pilot...and at his age, he more than fits into that category. His point is that it would be foolhardy to make this move...that the financial rewards will mature more slowly than his actual age...and that as a result, he'll always be behind the money curve.

That has been his argument from day one...and now he seemingly has done an about-face!

Indeed...maybe he can explain this.

No, he hasn't done an about-face. He's been saying all along how he'd happily take an offer from Alaska, despite all the negative aspects of the career he so thoroughly proliferates these boards with. It's pure irrationality, and I'm sure he'd admit to it, as well as explain that irrationality is precisely the trait needed to pursue the brass ring in the airlines.

National Level
 

It is a lot for Alaska Air but when compared to the 28,000 or so unemployed or underemployed pilots that are out there at any given time it isn't all that much. In order to see some real movement at the majors they all need to be hiring so that nationwide there is perhaps 5-7000 pilots hired.

Let's not forget that Alaska Air plans to hire that number over the next four years and this is after 4 years of near nil hiring. When you average all that out over the years it really dosen't amount to much.

Skyhigh

Plus
 

Let's not forget that I have already paid for my ticket. If the opportunity came up I would be a fool not to take it if offered at face value. It's not like I would run out and start from scratch as a brand new CFI. My perspectives haven't changed it still isn't worth all that.

At this point in my life I would do it just for the sake of achieving a life goal. The first thing I would do after clearing IOE is to run down to get my portrait taken in uniform. Hang that corny baby on the wall next to the obligatory print of an Alaska Airlines jet in flight. The odds of my sticking around after that for very long would be in question. I mean I am not crazy. I can make more on one house than I could for the entire year as an FO, but dreams are dreams.

SkyHigh

Are you trying to discredit him or genuinely interested in his answer? I can't tell since I don't really know you. My feeling is you and many others would like to have something to use / hold over Skyhigh (a personl attack against one of you, a off-colour remark, etc...) as a means to discredit him.

If he's done one thing its answer all with a sincerely and without mud-slinging. I hope he continues to do so in the future.


-LAFF

Luck and timing
 

I agree. 35-40 years ago, the military was vigorously recruiting pilot candidates due to Vietnam -- the AF alone had ten UPT bases running at capacity. But there were plenty of applicants because of the draft lottery and the fact that (at that time) major airlines hired almost no civilians. Around 1/3 washed out of UPT. Airline jobs were plentiful in the late 70's, but if you ended up at the wrong company, you didn't get to KEEP the job very long. Deregulation probably killed as many pilot careers as it launched. I was a S/O for 7 years, and considered myself lucky. The list of vanished airlines is quite long.

Dickens wrote "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times." Pick any era, and that quote probably applies. I agree with you that some of the unfortunate trends in the airline profession today seem to be permanent, but I also remember that we thought the same thing many times before. I expected to "see the big picture" when I retired. Nope. :confused:

No...I'm only saying that he has contradicted everything he has so profusely written on the subject of chasing the dream.

Shackone
 

Dear Shackone,

Go and search what I have written. I have always maintained that I would take an opportunity at Alaska Airlines if given today, but I would not waste another day to start over in this profession. If UPS decided to offer me a job I would at least consider sitting through ground school and if nothing else the sim time would serve as a BFR.

I am addicted to flying like everyone else but I wouldn't sacrifice anything more to be there and most likely would not stay longer than it took to satisfy that old dream.


SkyHigh

Now see you lost me here SH. If you would jump at a chance at Alaska, why wouldnt you eagerly take UPS?

EDIT- I need to add something else here...


Everyone starts out on the lower list sometime in their life. Just because your getting a little older, and maybe having some mid life crisis, doesn't mean you should not be thrown on the bottom of the senority list and pay more dues. I understand you think you paid enough, but sometimes it just isn't.

Why would being hired at Alaska not be 'starting over'? How would that be different than starting out at UPS?

Clarification
 

Shackone,

What I mean is that I wouldn't lay down the cash for initial training to be followed by several years of low paid humiliation. I have already incurred the expense of acquiring my licences and wasted a decade of my life in lower jobs gaining experience. I wouldn't consider myself to be starting over as a new hire at Alaska Airlines or UPS. Their lowly new hire pay rates are higher than what I averaged while climbing the ladder.

SKyHigh

Seems like one of your critical errors was flying / working fun jobs (alaska bush flying, corporate jets, etc...).

Would you tell someone starting out to get a 121 job ASAP and forget about the 'fun' flying jobs?

Is it worth it to stay a CFI for an extra year or two to get the ATP then apply to the regionals and start working in the 121 world?

Just trying to get a better grip on the career...

Thanks,
LAFF

Really!!

What would you consider yourself then?

In my opinion I would pay whatever sum to go strait to a regional.

Once when introducing myself to a captain at the beginning of a four day trip he asked me about my background. When I came to my bush pilot experience he stated "wow that is good experience". In my mind I had to pause because that statement caught me as odd. Good for what? I had to ask myself.

This guy went straight into a Lear and then to the regionals. Now he was my captain in a 757. In the modern world of aviation what good is experience like that anymore? As a bush pilot you are taught self reliance, analytical thinking and a "can do" attitude. There was no one else there to help you get your plane unstuck. I couldn't call dispatch to work up a new weight and balance when an unexpected passenger showed up. My performance calculations were done by pacing out the distances and going off my gut. If my pax showed up intoxicated and armed TSA was not going to pop out and subdue him. (they probably wouldn't do that at LAX either) I grew into a confidant capable and independent pilot who was use to being in command of highly intense situations. At the end of the day I was overcome with a huge sense of satisfaction and was a nervous wreck.

We were responsible for everything from load and route planning to aircraft selection. How does that help an airline pilot who's company goal it is to become a manual driven automaton? For that matter, what good is being a CFI if your goal is to become an airline pilot? You are taught rules procedures and skills that mostly don't apply to flying 121. In my opinion it just pollutes the mind with conflicting FAR's and emergency procedures.

In my opinion the best route is straight to a regional if at all possible. I would write out the check and never look back. Real pilot experience means nothing anymore and in fact can become a hindrance.

SkyHigh

Self Consideration
 

I would consider myself as taking an opportunity that I had already paid far to much for.

In all honesty though if it was for any company other than Alaska Air I most likely I would hang the letter inviting me to ground school on the wall and write an nice and warm "no thank you letter". Alaska Airlines is different since its compensation would go beyond the mere paycheck.

SKyHigh

might be true if youre talking about the old school single pilot mentality. those "real pilots" can fly the heck out of an airplane, but they lack the most important thing these days: CRM. I think the best background out there is one that offers a chance to see both sides. Sure you have to rely on yourself and be able to handle situations and act independently as a start, but you also have to balance that with how to effectively get things done as a crew. This is the most important thing in a fully automated crew airplane. Autopilot (if its working properly) usually flies the airplane better than we can hand fly, so its not about how awesome we are with our flying skills. Its about properly distributing workloads and and solving problems together. On the other hand i dont necessarily think those old school types are a bad thing unless they keep that single pilot mentality in a crew environment. Its good to have experience on both ends of the spectrum...

Exactly
 

The question was, "what experience is valued anymore"? Single pilot part 135 and part 91 CFI really doesn't help at all if you are intending to impress an airline. We all have to start someplace but the best by far is to buy your way into a 121 airline operation over the latter.

SkyHigh