Privilege and Pilots
 

I was sitting in the waiting room at Alaska Airlines with two other applicants. We had finished our simulator rides earlier that morning and were waiting for the board interview when one received a phone call. It was his wife with good news. Horizon Airlines had called his home to congratulate him for getting hired at Alaska Airlines. Apparently the HR department had already called Horizon Air earlier that morning to tell them that they would be taking him.

When asked when he would be home he told his wife that he hadn't even gone in for his interview yet. Sheepishly he had to tell us what his phone call was about. Soon after the secretary called him in and fifteen minutes later he was on his way home being escorted out by one of the interviewing captains who was in the middle of telling him a story about a trip he had with his father years prior.

It is a nice idea to think that pilots are hired upon skill, experience and education alone. The reality is that you would recognise many of the names in a new hire class from the seniority list. Privilege and connections are prevalent in the airlines and I am told in the military as well.

Minimums, past convictions even fake educations are overlooked daily for the sons and daughters of the right people. Why does this matter to me, you might ask? Well every airline hires only a handful of people during most years. By my guess as many as one third are legacy hires and another third or more are from military connections. Human resources always has the diversity candidates that they campaign for. The seats left over gets awfully small for the average Joe off the street.

Don't kid yourself, most of the pilots who make it to the majors have had someone grease the system for them at some point. Either it was through a coveted placement in the military or a handshake between fathers behind the scenes. Few make it upon their own merit alone. The PC term is "networking". The ones who recieved the most help are easy to spot since they become enraged at the suggestion of it. My advise to you is to either get into one of those privileged groups or count on having considerably reduced odds and a much longer and more difficult time.

SkyHigh

All of my colleagues made it to the left seat the old fashion way... by their own will, determination, and dedication to the profession to.

There were no hand shakes... no nepotism'... or any special considerations given to these men and women.

You talk about the minority of the people that are hired by the airlines today rather than the majority.

skyhigh, a quick question?

Do you have severally LONG flight time to think about these things? I see you posting things that clearly require plenty of thought, are you depressed? It sounds like you aren't happy where you work that's for sure.


Anyway, I admire your style, cut throat, and to the point.....respectful.

How?
 

How can you say that? You were not there when your colleagues got their first jobs. They will not often volunteer how it was an uncle who got them their fighter slot back in the 1980's even though they were not the best candidate. By the time a pilot is a captain it is difficult to tell and most will not volunteer that information. In addition those who have received a big hand up might not realize it themselves. I mean doesnt everyone have a mother who is related to the wing commander?

SKyHigh

Time
 

I have spent most of the last 20 years carefully studying what it takes to make lightning strike at the majors. A portion of my research was spent investigating the backgrounds of new hires in order to determine what the magic bullet was. If given enough information I can discover to a high percentage where the grease came from.

No depression, just my findings.

SkyHigh

My older sister slept with the VP of flight ops so that helped. I also blackmailed a pilot recruiter over a drunken fling in Mexico we had months earlier. Still took two months to get the call though. Actually my sister is not that good lookin, that's probably why it took so long!

Ok you make sense in that aspect, BUT

why discourage young up and comers to not get in the biz? Granted it sucks, the pay is terrible, and QOL isn't what it used to be, but why sit there and bash some 15yr old kids dreams? I am one of those that grew up knowing i was going to fly for a living, my mom/dad aren't in the field, so i am a one legged jackass in a butt kicking contest, but I am not doing to bad for myself. Maybe your bitter but sometimes it is about luck, not the "grease" or "magic bullet" you speak of.



p.s. you have that grease in a can? I need me some!

We all know that knowing someone will make things easier in life. Not only in aviation but in everything else. Knowing someone could get you into USC. Knowing someone can get you into a big law firm. Knowing someone can get you to the playboy mansion. Knowing someone can can make life so much easier. Having connections will not only help in aviation, it will also help in life.
All around us people are getting jobs because of connections. Also, all around us people with out connections are getting hired.
Hell if I knew someone, I could probably get that FedEx job I want, to help pay for school and flight training.
Many people in my highschool got nice jobs because they knew someone, I didn't and got stuck working in Mc'Donnalds (flipping burgers for some pathetic superviser, who is a fricken moron, (I already quit, for personal reasons)).
The point is that knowing somone will make life easier in any profession. Everybody knows that. That's what business cards are for, that's why we act professional towards others, and try and leave a good impression.

That's funny.:D . Don't lie CalCapt, the pilot recruiter was gay, and you had to do some work of you own. You neglected at first:eek: , that's why it took so long.

Just Kidding, a little humor doesn't hurt anybody. :D

"most of the pilots who make it to the majors have had someone grease the system for them at some point"

In late 89 I had 1500 turbine, in a Convair, and 300 hours in the left seat. One type rating. I got hired at UPS knowing nobody. I know it wasn't glamorous but it made sense to me. My degree was from Riddle.

Pretty arrogant of you to make such a statement without knowing me or my colleagues... wouldn't you agree? We all have our jobs... true some of us have bounced around from one airline to another... and some globe trotting around the world too. But no... we all got first uniforms the old fashioned way.

I feel sorry for your self pity in not being able to secure a place in the cockpit. Unfortunately, your doubts and negative views far outshine your great abilities of being a flyer during your interviews. Leave them at home... or better yet bury them along with your past.

Happy flying... and I hope you get that job.

Dude, just outta curiosity, how do you think things work in the rest of the buisness world? It's not what you know that gets you the job in the downtown Manhatten office, its who you know. This is a concept that is not unique to the airline. If you were working in a cubicle somewhere, you would be whining about the same thing of not knowing the right people to get the job.

So, while you sit there and make life miserable for the guy sitting next to you for 4 days whining about not knowing the right people, just remember he could be the one that is on your next hiring board and will remember how awful flying with you was

Dude... that's why I owned my own business for 22 years... So I would not have to sit and listen to any whiny self pitying ba$tards.

And I was a DO of an airline that did not subscribe to the who you know philosophy, and guess what... I didn't hire any self pitying whiny ba$tards there either.

Oh by the way... my offices weres in Midtown Manhattan and Long Island.

Internal recommendations are good business practice. Instead of hiring by what a few people saw in just one day, they have a recommendation from someone who (hopefully) knows the candidate well and can attest to his/her personality, flying abilities, and decission making. Its less risk for the company

Sorry, I didn't mean to post that quote in my previous reply.

There ya go again, Sky...more BS about a subject you have zero experience in.

Uncles don't get people fighter assignments. Class standing in UPT does. Wing commanders aren't involved in the assignment process.

Are there folks who get a little help along the way? Of course...life is life, in the airlines or out.

But most make it on their own. You didn't. Carrying on here as you do won't expunge your demons. You failed...get over it.

Since you want to use military analogies, quit acting like a ****ed off, passed over jerk...in or outside of the military, folks like yourself are not unusual. But they usually are alone.

Go build a house. Make something positive out of your life. All of this repetitious and often erroneous whining isn't contributing anything to anyone.

having connections is a great thing. moral of the story is START NETWORKING!!! get to know people and be a decent likeable person and who knows you might just have someone offer to run your resume to the chief pilot.

The military connection is not just a way of getting all your friends hired... the military connection is there because military training has been proven over time. Its reliable, theres little room for fraud, and they generally wont fail out of training. This is by no way knocking civilian training which is usually excellent.

By the way this is a huge issue right now, a lot of guys failing out of training in the regionals... As an example, my friend at mainline AA showed me a thread on the APA forum and a memo from AMR was saying that sometimes up to 30-40% of guys arent making it through training at Eagle. So connections will only get you so far, then the rest is up to you.

Thanks Shackone
 

One of my reasons for posting this thread is to get people thinking about joining the military. As you mentioned I never was in the military but I do have friends who were and witnessed the strange phenomenon of brothers being from the same guard unit then moving on to the same major airline where their father worked. Strange coincidence...;)

And for your information I am doing many positive things with my life like helping others on their path to or from the airlines. :)

By the way Shackone, You were in the military did any of your buddies have lunch with the chef pilot on your behalf?

Skyhigh

Non-Referals
 

It seems to me that in the competitive world of airline hiring that the days of the unknown hire are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Airlines like Alaska Airlines and SWA have well established networking systems. They don't even try to masquerade it anymore.

If the age 60 rule is moved to 65 the average age of major airline new hires will jump to 45 years old, minimums will reach perhaps 3000 jet PIC and the applicant will have to be related to two people who work there. :) Hell it probably is heading there anyway.

To those of you reading this post who currently are not related to anyone at an airline tell your parents to start applying now.

SkyHigh

Perfect Shackone, could not have said it better!

Sky, please do us all a favor and go spend that quality time with the family you missed out on before you could not make it in the industry. The hours you spend daily on this site COMPLAINING and CRYING certainly could be better spent somewhere else. I don't mind the opposing view, but it's simply pathetic now. Your ignorance on military flight slots selections is amazing, maybe you know a few like that, I can assure you its not the norm. (Yes, I am sure there are SOME.) Let those of us who have done both handle the issue.

P.S. My daddy was/is a dairy farmer, it carried tremendous weight when I got the aircraft of my choice in the military. :D

That's right...and you continue to show your ignorance of the military.

If you are trying to make the case that some pilot got hired because of a family connection, have at it. It's no secret in life that connections can help.

Just don't continue with trying to make a sometime thing sound like the norm. It's not.

Finally, don't use ANG situations as a way to comment on 'the military'. They aren't the same.

No. I knew no one at TWA. No one wrote letters for me. I was interviewed by the Vice President for Operations and the Director of Training. They asked me one question. After that, they wanted to BS about flying fighters. I walked out knowing I was hired.

Sounds like the bottom line for SH is that he was turned down by Alaska. Use the negative vibes as a learning tool for your next interview.

It sure is funny how SkyHigh always talks about how good his life is, and how nobody should be in aviation, yet he interviews with Alaska. Some people just aren't happy unless they themselves and everyone else around them are miserable. Sounds to me like someones always got a case of the Mondays.

the military is a good option, but its going to be highly competitive these next couple years due to downsizing and budget cuts, so its not like it was right after 9-11 when the Air Force was taking in a ton of guys to meet their manning requirements.

The military is letting a lot of guys seperate early due to overhiring after 9-11. I don't think it would be the best option for anyone due to extremely high competition as stated earlier. Maybe if you get hired by an ANG unit or a reserve unit, but not active duty.

Aviation is an incestuous business and everybody knows everybody. The kid I went to school with 2 years ago got me my job today. I don't see anything wrong with that. Some people call it networking, others call it nepotism or favoritism, but in the long run...it's someone standing up for the aviation skill and determination you were trying to use to get hired in the first place. Think of the people that help you out like a billboard. You don't just open a store and hope people will come in because you worked hard to open it. You get an advertising company to put up a billboard saying "Hey, go here" and advertise that you exist. Same thing when that buddy/brother/cousin/father/uncle/neighbor of yours who also happens to be a captain at XXX Airways walks your resume in.

Dont Hate The Player...hate The Game!!!!

Everyone uses some form of advantage to get where they go and I don't blame them for that. Unless you were born in a brothel to a crack addict mom and a absent or abusive father, you were born in some privilege. Hell, even just being born in the USA gave you an advantage. If you interview with an airline, the job is yours to lose. Airlines do not bring you in unless you are qualified for the job. If you fail in the process somewhere, you need to look in the mirror.

I failed at too many airlines I care to mention before getting on with Alaska. I still don't know what they saw in me. :o Anyway, every failed interview gave me experience to build on and eventually I fooled them. :D But seriously, some guys are so, "head and shoulders" over the rest, they get their first choice of airlines. Most of us have to do the best we can with the hand we're dealt. I had no "in" with Alaska. If I can do it anyone can.

Skyhigh you need get over the fact that it did not work out last time at Alaska. Although you have landed on your feet, it is obvious you still have the bug. Alaska hiring again in record numbers. It is never too late to try again. Something needs to change however. I'm sure you would take the job if offered. So make it happen! Or get over it and stop trying to find a reason other than something about you for the reason you failed at Alaska.

SkyHigh, I assume you know already that the majors don't care about your flight hours or your experience, they already know that you can fly. They want the extra. Internal recs are done at every industry and some only hire by internal rec so you should be happy that there is still chance for off the street people in the airline industry.

True, Mil trainig beats civ training anyday. But I would say it's hardly perfect. Look at the Dover C-5. How many guys in the front of that plane? How many instructors in the front of that plane? I'm not trying to start a Mil vs. Civ pi$$ING contest, just stating the point

I'm sure if Eagle could get people that actaully have experience, the statistic would be alot different.

As far as the 30-40% thing goes, are you absolutely sure it was failing out of training completely, or just had problems and required additional trainning?

[QUOTE=dojetdriver;76937]True, Mil trainig beats civ training anyday./QUOTE]

Especially when we the tax payers pay for the training.

Alaska Air
 

Mike 734,

I am sure that I will always lament over my missed opportunities at Alaska Airlines. Ever since I was a little boy I have dreamed of working for that company. Every breath I took had that hope invested in it and everyday was spent trying to get one more inch closer to it. My last attempt at Alaska was my last. I knew it at the time. I had no cards left to play. Once National Airlines went under it took with it my dream. Everything I had worked for flushed down the drain that day.

Some might suggest trying again but every year the minimums get taller and the competition more fierce. I could easily burn the rest of my life chasing it and if there is one thing I have learned about Alaska Airlines is that they are not interested in desperate civilian pilots over 40. My odds have already dimmed to ridiculous. While I am sure there is always a chance most likely I would loose everything else I have in life to get to a point where I would have just one more throw. A 20 year old can bounce back a few times but by the time you are past 40 we all need to become more conservative. I have sat next to many a pilot who held on too long and it is not pretty.

My entire point of this exercise is that I think younger pilots feel that they can rest upon their skills and education alone. In my opinion those things mean very little to a pilots success. During my 20 year quest I never failed a check ride, scored less than a 90 on any FAA test, graduated near the top of my class and never even so much as scratched the paint throughout my perilous career. All the while I know pilots who have crashed planes and killed people who are on the seniority list of some of our finest major airlines. I stood over the shoulder and watched as a co-worker purchased a fake degree and now works for Alaska Airlines. I had knowledge of a pilot who was being pursued by immigration on the day he interviewed for my favorite airline, lied about his time and education and by now I am sure is quite senior. I have a few dozen more stories like that but I am sure you get the picture. The diffrence, they were not above a lie and made friends with the right people.

Am I bitter sure, but life is not fair right? Things do really work out for the best they say. The ironic thing is that now that I have raised my position in life I currently live in a town that is crawling with AS pilots. I run into them everywhere it seems. The easy answer is to get over it but it isn't like flipping a switch. After 20 years it will take a while to fade. Till then I will have to punish you guys I guess. :)

SkyHigh

Geez.... Dude, I can't take this wallowing in sorrow any more. One of us must die! If I were stuck in a plane with you on a four day trip, on day three one of the pax would find me hanging in the lav!


That said, you are a fine example for future pilots..... a NEGATIVE example, that is!

KIDS, Don't Be like This guy!

I personally like his style...

Cut throat, to the point.

But i think he needs depression meds. :D

Negative example
 

Right on target. I am a sad and negative example. My story is average among most pilots. It is one of my strongest testaments here that I am the product of a long, painful and ultimately fruitless venture in aviation.

I might seem like the odd duck here on APC but I can assure you that I am among the majority of pilots. APC mostly has only two types of posters here, the newbie and the major airline hero here to seek a little grandstanding perhaps. The middle ground is mostly unrepresented or overlooked and that is where I fit in. I am the voice of the masses who burned up dropped out or is so depressed by his station in life the last thing they want to do is to spend more time lamenting over it on the Internet during the few precious hours that they have off between flights.

Therefore kids look before you leap. Put some time and research into your decision making. Use my stories and others like them to avoid pitfalls and mistakes. Don't reject the hard luck stories that you might read here but read them harvest its information and use it to your advantage.

SkyHigh

"KIDS, Don't Be like This guy"

Yeah kids, don't. But if the career deals you similar cards, don't say you weren't warned....

Cows swing a lot of weight
 

Same story here. The herd sent in a nice letter of recommendation, but it was a lot of bull. :p

Since you seem to be sympathetic to SH's posts, let's take the focus off of him and put it on to his message (assuming there is one).

What do you think that message is?

Based upon your profile, are you one of those guys who fits SH's formula for success...who was your rabbi?

I'll ask again...exactly what is it that you want the younger readers here to take away from these posts?

"I'll ask again...exactly what is it that you want the younger readers here to take away from these posts?"

That there is a significant chance that, no matter what you do, you might not make it to the top of the career. It's like a pyramid, the closer to the top you shoot for, the less likely you'll make it. If you'd be happy in the middle, then the more likely you'll make it. Not everyone who simply "wants it", is gonna get there. There is a certain amount of luck and timing involved that you can't control.

Ha Ha! It was the bull(sXXt) part that helped me! :D