The cost of work
12-18-2012, 07:20 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
Their is no reasoning with such a viewpoint. It would seem like 100 years of history would have proved it. I find it ironic that the naysayers have the capitalistic system to thank for the fact that they can speak freely on the internet, or for that matter even afford an internet but yet bash it down around every corner not even seeing that it gave them everything they have today.
12-20-2012, 09:40 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by Snarge
How about an iron first mauling in the face. Most Americans are conditioned to believe that capitalism is righteous and better than anything else out there.... which is far from the truth. Capitalism sells lies, makes it worse, then sells the cure...
If the last 5 years has not been an indictment on Capitalism, and with a cyclical understanding of American History with the same conditions every 80 years, then what else does one need to know that the current form of Capitalism is a farce.
Capitalism isn't even capitalism.
I didn't question the cost of going to work or even the cost of being qualified to work. Rather I stated instead of concerning ones self with such cost, rather the real issue is how much less we actually receive for the amount of value created. I believe capitalism generally takes 50% or more of someone's work value.
You have started with the premise that CEO's and the exec team by default already control the terms. Which they do, but I am raising the question why..... radical perhaps, but why do we just assume it has always been this way or should be this way?
Disagree. Right to work means you do not determine the terms... you are simply a wage slave. The choice is quit or continue to work. If you quit (or flee), like a 19th Century plantation slave, there are consequences albeit much different. But those are the only two choices. Your worth is determined by what management decides to pay you within the realm of supply and demand. Unions get wages on the high side. Right to work... on the low side of supply and demand.
But even with union labor... a person doesn't truly own their work. Lack of ownership is lack of control....
At my last job, at the end of the FY, workers would be shuffled from one govt contractor to the next, resetting their longevity, losing earned vacation, sick, etc. They'd walk the halls, totally screwed, yet muttering "I am just happy to have a job....." Perverted in a way actually... they have no control... either accept new terms or quit. No determining the terms.
Propose a system in which people determine the terms in which they live their lives, including the work place, not a political or economic elite. Not sure that has ever been done and perhaps too utopic. However, nothing wrong with calling BS on the status quo.......
If the last 5 years has not been an indictment on Capitalism, and with a cyclical understanding of American History with the same conditions every 80 years, then what else does one need to know that the current form of Capitalism is a farce.
Capitalism isn't even capitalism.
I didn't question the cost of going to work or even the cost of being qualified to work. Rather I stated instead of concerning ones self with such cost, rather the real issue is how much less we actually receive for the amount of value created. I believe capitalism generally takes 50% or more of someone's work value.
You have started with the premise that CEO's and the exec team by default already control the terms. Which they do, but I am raising the question why..... radical perhaps, but why do we just assume it has always been this way or should be this way?
Disagree. Right to work means you do not determine the terms... you are simply a wage slave. The choice is quit or continue to work. If you quit (or flee), like a 19th Century plantation slave, there are consequences albeit much different. But those are the only two choices. Your worth is determined by what management decides to pay you within the realm of supply and demand. Unions get wages on the high side. Right to work... on the low side of supply and demand.
But even with union labor... a person doesn't truly own their work. Lack of ownership is lack of control....
At my last job, at the end of the FY, workers would be shuffled from one govt contractor to the next, resetting their longevity, losing earned vacation, sick, etc. They'd walk the halls, totally screwed, yet muttering "I am just happy to have a job....." Perverted in a way actually... they have no control... either accept new terms or quit. No determining the terms.
Propose a system in which people determine the terms in which they live their lives, including the work place, not a political or economic elite. Not sure that has ever been done and perhaps too utopic. However, nothing wrong with calling BS on the status quo.......
capitalism takes 50% of ones work value? what is ones work value? is that an answer driven my market forces, aka capitalism? in pure socialism, there is no work value, the pilot makes as much as the garbage man makes as much as the lawyer.
You suggest right to work is worse for the employee than a union state. I've lived in a right to work state and the airline I now work for is union. This being my first union job, I make less now than any job I have ever had before, ever. In my terrible right to work state, even at 15 years old I made minimum wage $5.15 an hour plus tips. After tips, I still think I made more than then now as a union airline pilot. And the union that represents us is currently play the NMB and negotiations game. In right to work conditions we probably would have been able to strike long ago without waiting for the blessing of the NMB. This means we would have gotten a much better work contract long ago.
But thats the difference between a fair market vs. when the government gets involved. I would contend that capitalism has done more for the middle class, the poor, the advancement of technology and society than any other form of government has. Capitalism is what has created the modern middle class, and capitalism has given more power to the people from the elite than any other form of government has.
To the rest of you, sorry this is so long...
12-22-2012, 03:31 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by Denver
Their is no reasoning with such a viewpoint. It would seem like 100 years of history would have proved it.
I find it ironic that the naysayers have the capitalistic system to thank for the fact that they can speak freely on the internet, or for that matter even afford an internet but yet bash it down around every corner not even seeing that it gave them everything they have today.
12-22-2012, 03:43 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by BenS
Capitalism: you indict it as if it is a murderer. Yet when you say the last 5 years are proof capitalism is a failure, I'd have to ask you who has fared better? socialist europe (see greece, spain, italy)? communist cuba? Who finances our debt, the communist or the capitalist wing of China? Truthfully, capitalism has fared these last 5 better than any other form of government.
capitalism takes 50% of ones work value? what is ones work value? is that an answer driven my market forces, aka capitalism? in pure socialism, there is no work value, the pilot makes as much as the garbage man makes as much as the lawyer.
You suggest right to work is worse for the employee than a union state. I've lived in a right to work state and the airline I now work for is union. This being my first union job, I make less now than any job I have ever had before, ever. In my terrible right to work state, even at 15 years old I made minimum wage $5.15 an hour plus tips. After tips, I still think I made more than then now as a union airline pilot. And the union that represents us is currently play the NMB and negotiations game. In right to work conditions we probably would have been able to strike long ago without waiting for the blessing of the NMB. This means we would have gotten a much better work contract long ago.
But thats the difference between a fair market vs. when the government gets involved. I would contend that capitalism has done more for the middle class, the poor, the advancement of technology and society than any other form of government has. Capitalism is what has created the modern middle class, and capitalism has given more power to the people from the elite than any other form of government has.
To the rest of you, sorry this is so long...
12-22-2012, 05:42 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,978
Originally Posted by BenS
I've lived in a right to work state and the airline I now work for is union. This being my first union job, I make less now than any job I have ever had before, ever.
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