|
Originally Posted by SmitteyB
(Post 1328080)
They haven't yet. Shows how little you know about the Constitution and By-Laws.
Pay isn't everything that goes into costing. We still retain some BETTER THAN INDUSTRY STANDARD provisions. Healthcare, min day, JR assignment protection, post-2014 vacation accrual, per diem. Please stop acting like we are GoJet (no "s" on GOJET). Loss of hundreds of jobs. 1/2 captains become f/o's that end up at 4 year pay. The other 1/2 of the captains get a pay cut. Do everyone in this country a favor and close your doors. Your management has proven that with whatever labor costs they are unable to maintain a profit. It isn't the wages that are the problem. It's management. Pinnacle pilots had it good for a long stretch. Lots of new airplanes. Fast upgrades....but this couldn't last. You got what you could out of it now move on. Every dog has a life. It's time for this one to be put down. |
Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1328391)
This line of thought is so funny!
Skywest and ExpressJet guys should not worry about how the 9E TA affects them. When management comes to you with a big stick and asks for concessions, all you have to do is follow the advice you are giving Pinnacle pilots ................ vote NO. Problem solved, right? The problem is XJT's contract doesn't have a 70/76-seat rate, and a rate can be determined outside of contract negotiations through binding arbitration. The arbitrator will say, "Oh gee, those silly Pinnacle pilots just voted for a really low 76-seat pay rate, so that must be what the market is currently." And he will grant the company offensively low 76-seat wages because your ignorant pilots just voted for them. And then XJT pilots will be whipsawed against ASA pilots, who already have a 2nd year 76-seat rate that is WAY higher than Pinnacle's new top-end rate. And the cycle continues. Thanks, guys. Your lack of foresight might become apparent to you when you're sitting in XJT new hire class making a fraction of what you should have been. |
Boo hoo cry me a river. Sacrifice myself, my family's livelihood.. all because your worried that it might affect you. Fix your own house, don't complain to me. You all have done nothing, nothing, I'll say it again NOTHING to support us.
|
Originally Posted by atrdriver
(Post 1328450)
Easier said than done.
The problem is XJT's contract doesn't have a 70/76-seat rate, and a rate can be determined outside of contract negotiations through binding arbitration. The arbitrator will say, "Oh gee, those silly Pinnacle pilots just voted for a really low 76-seat pay rate, so that must be what the market is currently." And he will grant the company offensively low 76-seat wages because your ignorant pilots just voted for them. And then XJT pilots will be whipsawed against ASA pilots, who already have a 2nd year 76-seat rate that is WAY higher than Pinnacle's new top-end rate. And the cycle continues. Thanks, guys. Your lack of foresight might become apparent to you when you're sitting in XJT new hire class making a fraction of what you should have been. |
Originally Posted by seafeye
(Post 1328414)
hmmmm
Loss of hundreds of jobs. 1/2 captains become f/o's that end up at 4 year pay. The other 1/2 of the captains get a pay cut. Do everyone in this country a favor and close your doors. Your management has proven that with whatever labor costs they are unable to maintain a profit. It isn't the wages that are the problem. It's management. Pinnacle pilots had it good for a long stretch. Lots of new airplanes. Fast upgrades....but this couldn't last. You got what you could out of it now move on. Every dog has a life. It's time for this one to be put down. |
Originally Posted by atrdriver
(Post 1328450)
Easier said than done.
The problem is XJT's contract doesn't have a 70/76-seat rate, and a rate can be determined outside of contract negotiations through binding arbitration. The arbitrator will say, "Oh gee, those silly Pinnacle pilots just voted for a really low 76-seat pay rate, so that must be what the market is currently." And he will grant the company offensively low 76-seat wages because your ignorant pilots just voted for them. And then XJT pilots will be whipsawed against ASA pilots, who already have a 2nd year 76-seat rate that is WAY higher than Pinnacle's new top-end rate. And the cycle continues. Thanks, guys. Your lack of foresight might become apparent to you when you're sitting in XJT new hire class making a fraction of what you should have been. |
You all have done nothing, nothing, I'll say it again NOTHING to support us. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1328463)
Remember after the Mesaba buyout, when Pinnacle wanted to picket outside HQs against management, and Mesaba and Colgan committees sent out emails saying they would not be with Pinnacle on the picket, because they don't believe it's the right thing to do, and they are giving management more time?? Yeah, good times. So much for "support" from fellow brothers.
|
Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1328461)
Sounds to me you are telling me how to vote because of your lack of foresight.
|
Originally Posted by atrdriver
(Post 1328467)
In what respect did I have a lack of foresight? And I never told you how to vote; I only suggested the ignorance of voting yes.
Mesaba didn't have 76 seat aircraft but we made damn sure those rates were in the contract we signed prior to this merger circus. ASA had the foresight, why does it come down to another carrier to help you with an oversight in your glorious contract. XJT and ASA pilots wouldn't do squat to help Pinnacle pilots out. I guarantee most of you guys would be very happy if we voted ourselves out of business. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1328463)
Remember after the Mesaba buyout, when Pinnacle wanted to picket outside HQs against management, and Mesaba and Colgan committees sent out emails saying they would not be with Pinnacle on the picket, because they don't believe it's the right thing to do, and they are giving management more time?? Yeah, good times. So much for "support" from fellow brothers.
|
Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1328473)
The fact that XJT didn't have the foresight for 76-seat rates.
Mesaba didn't have 76 seat aircraft but we made damn sure those rates were in the contract we signed prior to this merger circus. ASA had the foresight, why does it come down to another carrier to help you with an oversight in your glorious contract. XJT and ASA pilots wouldn't do squat to help Pinnacle pilots out. I guarantee most of you guys would be very happy if we voted ourselves out of business. And a no vote isn't a vote to put yourself out of business. 80kts and others who have intimate knowledge of how Delta operates have explained why that's the case on this thread and many others. It's all a scare tactic. 9E's fate does not hinge on this vote. What does, however, is the compensation of every regional airline pilot for the next decade. |
Originally Posted by atrdriver
(Post 1328478)
I don't work under the XJT contract so I can't speak for why they didn't have the foresight to negotiate large RJ wages.
And a no vote isn't a vote to put yourself out of business. 80kts and others who have intimate knowledge of how Delta operates have explained why that's the case on this thread and many others. It's all a scare tactic. 9E's fate does not hinge on this vote. What does, however, is the compensation of every regional airline pilot for the next decade. If you don't like what is presented to you, vote no. That is the exact choice I am presented with at this time, you will get yours next, irregardless of how our vote turns out. |
+1 Bartok. Nobody should have to worry.
|
Why the hell are Pinnacle pilots posting in this thread.
WE GET IT...YOU ARE VOTING THE TA IN. We are not discussing that...we are discussing the consequences of this epic failure of a contract. |
Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1328484)
I haven't discussed if I feel that the danger of going out of business is real or not, however I do not believe we are not going to affect anyone else's contract unless they let it.
Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1328473)
I guarantee most of you guys would be very happy if we voted ourselves out of business.
Time to hit the bar... you really ought to, too, Bartok. Sounds like you could use a drink. Something other than the Kool Aid of course. |
Originally Posted by atrdriver
(Post 1328503)
Can't have it both ways. Also can't talk sense to a delusional 9E pilot it seems.
Time to hit the bar... you really ought to, too, Bartok. Sounds like you could use a drink. Something other than the Kool Aid of course. You don't have a clue how I voted. All I said was ASA/XJT pilots would love it if we went out of business. And this whole mess makes me want to drink. |
Originally Posted by BIGRIG
(Post 1328475)
How about ALPA national telling the Pinnacle MEC not to picket. But the idiots from Pinnacle decided that they would do it anyway. No wonder it took 8 years to get a contract. Pretty easy to negotiate against amateurs. And I am not talking about management.
|
Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1328505)
And this whole mess makes me want to drink.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...lUA3FAqwxYhdZg |
Originally Posted by atrdriver
(Post 1328510)
|
Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 1328493)
Why the hell are Pinnacle pilots posting in this thread.
WE GET IT...YOU ARE VOTING THE TA IN. We are not discussing that...we are discussing the consequences of this epic failure of a contract. Some of us are seeing without the buzz of kool aid. |
you chest thumping geniuses act like Pinnacle is the first regional ever to have to vote on a concessionary contract. Why didn't you vote no on yours so WE could have gotten better rates on our last contract? Bunch of whiney hypocrites. Oh that's right...half of the whiners on here have probably been in the industry 3 years or less, riding the coattails of those who fought for better wages before them.....one group of which being the Pinnacle pilots in their no vote on TA 1 after 5 years. Weren't they the first regional to vote no to a TA if I recall correctly?
|
Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 1328529)
you chest thumping geniuses act like Pinnacle is the first regional ever to have to vote on a concessionary contract. Why didn't you vote no on yours so WE could have gotten better rates on our last contract? Bunch of whiney hypocrites. Oh that's right...half of the whiners on here have probably been in the industry 3 years or less, riding the coattails of those who fought for better wages before them.....one group of which being the Pinnacle pilots in their no vote on TA 1 after 5 years. Weren't they the first regional to vote no to a TA if I recall correctly?
|
You're in section 6, we're not. You're going to vote on a new contract, we're going to vote on a bankruptcy contract. The two should be completely separate. Your contract is to improve working conditions, ours is to save (supposedly) the company. If your negotiators are worth anything when your management comes to you and says but Pinnacle has this they should laugh and say they are in bankruptcy, it's completely different. I haven't determined which way I'm going to vote (I'm a 5th year FO) but I sure as heck am not going to vote based on how it will affect other regionals. I could care less how it will affect SkyWest, ASA/Expressjet. I have no intention of ever going to another regional, I'm going to vote on my personal financial situation.
You posters at other regionals want us to go away so you can get our planes, you don't give a thought to what we are going through so why should we care about how this will affect you and it's effect throughout the regional industry. I'm not starting over and I'm sure many of my coworkers are not starting over so I really could care less. If you want to support us then offer us jobs with our longevity, otherwise shut up, I'll take my $37/hr over $22/ hr first year followed by 30 followed by 34 and then 37. 2-3 years is a long time in this industry and ill take my chances. |
You're in section 6, we're not. You're going to vote on a new contract, we're going to vote on a bankruptcy contract. The two should be completely separate. Your contract is to improve working conditions, ours is to save (supposedly) the company. If your negotiators are worth anything when your management comes to you and says but Pinnacle has this they should laugh and say they are in bankruptcy, it's completely different. I haven't determined which way I'm going to vote (I'm a 5th year FO) but I sure as heck am not going to vote based on how it will affect other regionals. I could care less how it will affect SkyWest, ASA/Expressjet. I have no intention of ever going to another regional, I'm going to vote on my personal financial situation. You posters at other regionals want us to go away so you can get our planes, you don't give a thought to what we are going through so why should we care about how this will affect you and it's effect throughout the regional industry. I'm not starting over and I'm sure many of my coworkers are not starting over so I really could care less. If you want to support us then offer us jobs with our longevity, otherwise shut up, I'll take my $37/hr over $22/ hr first year followed by 30 followed by 34 and then 37. 2-3 years is a long time in this industry and ill take my chances. |
Originally Posted by PCLCREW
(Post 1328564)
Many of your coworkers have already left and went to other regionals and many are planning on doing the same so that logic is out the window.
|
How is starting over every few years and resetting your longevity to fly the same airplane in the musical airplane shuffle not lowering the bar? I mean really, the mainline carrier will get what they want. There is no getting around it it, all you can do is vote for your own personal situation. No one will stand up for anyone else.
|
I'm voting NO because recruiters at skypest and sure jet told me if pinnacle gets shut down because of a NO vote all pinnacle pilots will be guaranteed job security with longevity/pay/seniority at said carrier of choice.... You little forum worms that were picked on waaaay to much in high school need to give it a break... Pinnacle pilots don't give a rats a56 about you, or your airline, until you can give EVERY pinnacle pilot protection of retaining our longevity, pay, and DOH at your very soon to be next Comair , Mesa, Pinnacle airline, should we shut down because we vote NO like you want us... Until then, you nerds can **** off...
|
Unfortunately for all of us regional guys we just do not have the leverage. Delta is just finishing their regional consolidation, United is next to bat. You can bank on the top 405 guys voting for the TA. I bet a lot of the senior FOs/Downgraded Captains will vote yes just to buy some time so they can stay current. To be honest I don't blame them at all.
The only job security is at a major airline that has a lot of upcoming retirements. The writing is on the wall and having a plan b is more important than ever. The majors went through consolidation and now it is the regionals turn. The majors will get the cost savings they want one way or the other. |
Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 1328529)
Weren't they the first regional to vote no to a TA if I recall correctly?
|
Thanks for your contributions gents. Honestly I could care less what you vote. I would understand it if you vote yes. And I would understand if you vote no. In either case I am just curious as to how the outcome, one way or the other, will effect my company. SkyWest, Inc (Expressjet/ASA). I think you are very naive if you think this is going to catch SkyWest inc by surprise regardless of the outcome. Firm order for 200 airplanes. (100 firm, 100 option) right when our CPA is ending ...
For what it's worth; 2nd year pay on the -700 is $38 at SkyWest. Soft credit so you could easily credit 100 / month. Now, would you want to start over at year 1 bottom of the list anywhere ? Of course not... Which is why I sincerely hope it works out for you gents (and girls). Stay safe. 303. |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1328181)
That reasoning is beyond ridiculous. Delta has longterm contracts with SKYW /XJT. They can't threaten a Comair/PNCL fate because of that and the fact they don't own us. Delta owned Comair and basically owns Pinnacle so they can do what they want.
The PNCL TA really only affects XJT/SKYW by reducing the rates paid to Delta if there is another "rate reset" in the long term CPA and we are no longer the second lowest cost. Delta had no choice but to provide PNCL DIP financing, but they used it to work in their favor. If PNCL liquidated SKYW would have an unprecedented amount of leverage in DCI as far as rates. |
Originally Posted by SmitteyB:1328629
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1328181)
That reasoning is beyond ridiculous. Delta has longterm contracts with SKYW /XJT. They can't threaten a Comair/PNCL fate because of that and the fact they don't own us. Delta owned Comair and basically owns Pinnacle so they can do what they want.
The PNCL TA really only affects XJT/SKYW by reducing the rates paid to Delta if there is another "rate reset" in the long term CPA and we are no longer the second lowest cost. Delta had no choice but to provide PNCL DIP financing, but they used it to work in their favor. If PNCL liquidated SKYW would have an unprecedented amount of leverage in DCI as far as rates. |
It will be interesting to see the regionals do 50% of the flying statistic change in the coming years.
|
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1328646)
With $600 mil+ cash in the bank it'll take DL quite a while to force Inc into bankruptcy, especially when Inc doesn't have money losing CPAs
And yes I do understand that there AMR was in a whole different situation but I am just making the point that money in the bank is not as big as you are making it seem. |
So if voting for this new agreement closes on the 15th, when are the results going to be known?
|
Pinnacle also only has 1 source of income. Delta doesn't hold all the power when it comes to Skywest Inc. Being diversified along with a strong balance sheet makes this a whole different game for Xjet/Skyw.
|
Originally Posted by McNugent
(Post 1328688)
Pinnacle also only has 1 source of income. Delta doesn't hold all the power when it comes to Skywest Inc. Being diversified along with a strong balance sheet makes this a whole different game for Xjet/Skyw.
|
You are correct, but those were money bleeding contracts that 9E needed to get out of ASAP. Once Delta began providing financing, it was game over. Skyw Inc. has been smart about its bidding over the years and isn't as exposed to the same volatility as 9E.
I completely agree that we are next on Delta's hit list, but they don't have a gun to our heads like 9E. A rate reset might be an option, but simply holding out on payments and forcing bankruptcy isn't a likely scenario. Whether or not our company wants to play hardball with two stubborn negotiating committees (LXJT/LASA) and cry poor due to creative accounting is a different story. There is no safe regional, but there are certainly those that will be able to ride this out better than others. |
Originally Posted by McNugent
(Post 1328722)
You are correct, but those were money bleeding contracts that 9E needed to get out of ASAP. Once Delta began providing financing, it was game over. Skyw Inc. has been smart about its bidding over the years and isn't as exposed to the same volatility as 9E.
I completely agree that we are next on Delta's hit list, but they don't have a gun to our heads like 9E. A rate reset might be an option, but simply holding out on payments and forcing bankruptcy isn't a likely scenario. Whether or not our company wants to play hardball with two stubborn negotiating committees (LXJT/LASA) and cry poor due to creative accounting is a different story. There is no safe regional, but there are certainly those that will be able to ride this out better than others. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:06 PM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands