Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan ISL question.
 

It has been stated elsewhere on APC that the ISL awarded June 16, 2011 for Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan included furloughees who were mixed with active pilots. I have the award in front of me, but find no mention of furloughed pilots anywhere.

Was it a fiction? Were furloughees somehow in the list?


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps66adaf3d.jpg

They are mixed in as if they were not on furlough.

Wow, do you have any more info or a link to some old thread? How many on the list were furloughed and when?

Thanks for the quick answer!

Do a search on Pinnacle mesaba colgan SLI.

I don't want to go there.

I can't remember completely. But the only group out of the 3 airlines that would of had any furloughs would have been Mesaba. I am pretty sure that Mesaba furloughs were allowed to fly at Colgan, on the Saab, prior to the ISL. So they were on property then the ISL was created from what I remember.

There were still guys on furlough when the SLI was given, and the ones at 9L and 9E got to keep their XJ positioning, if that helped them any.

Ya, ya that's right.

Just when the wound was starting to heal... Haha!

Someone's trying to give it to the CAL guys!

We were all recalled prior to the submission of the lists to arbitration but we could keep our position at 9E or 9L if we wanted. We ended up at the end of the pre merger list anyways, only people we were senior to are the people hired after the merger.

Please include the fact you all have VERY LOW LONGEVITY. (I believe something like less than a 1-2 years at Mesaba--correct?)

We are not talking about guys who were furloughed with 8 years longevity and stapled. However the point is the ALPA MERGER policy was followed and that DOES NOT state that a furloughed pilot will be stapled.

Not exactly.....


However the CAL Merger SLI opener was "Staple all 1473 furloughs"

Dumb move by them to say that (1) and the most important part is the fact they failed at following ALPA MERGER POLICY.


Think of it as sticking the fork back where it came from!

Remember when furloughed XJ pilots came to 9E with their appropriate longevity credit? Those furloughees came with full (2nd year for some) pay/vacation/sick credit? And then the 9E union told 9E pilots that sorry, we couldn't get you a realignment of pay at class date (versus sim date). Yeah, thanks! Thank you for fighting for XJ furloughees and giving the 9E guys a cold shoulder. No wonder Wychor and gang won the union elections. You know it's bad when your airline pilots vote another airline's union members in to represent them.

Yeah but we know both sides opening acts will be ridiculous.....

No. 9L and XJ opening were not ridiculous, but 9E's was.

I'm talking about the united/cal one. On another note, were the 9E guys not willing to budge? Are they hated in the crew room?

9E was not really willing to budge. They stuck with category/class methods that basically ignored reality. In the end, they proposed categories RJ CA, RJ FO, Prop CA, Prop FO, so basically wanted to staple Colgan.

As for hating in crew rooms, I hear the crew room banter is getting bad in DTW especially. However, only 3 people were responsible for this mess and they were on the 9E merger committee. The rest of the 9E group were basically victims to the proposals put out by these 3. I think at this point the most vocal/****ed off guys are talking with their feet and have already left or are in the process of leaving.

ALPA committees do what their MEC asks them to do.

True, so I'll include these MEC members as well in the guilty party. Again, there's a reason 9E pilots voted Wychor and gang in to represent the net 9E group.

"Wychor and gang" as you put it won the election because they were the best people for the job. A large portion of the PCL MEC was a train wreck for a very long time....why would the pilot group want that mess in the newly formed MEC?

Well apparently they were "okay" with it when 9E was standalone so why not.

That's very debatable.....

There were only 3 guys on the 9E merger committee so that would be the entire committee. They were good guys, I find it hard to believe that they would be the only ones in there bashing Colgan guys.

disclaimer: I dont work there so this could be true, who knows.

I am really sorry to have opened up this proverbial "can of worms" but I will say that many on APC are misdirecting their anger. First, it was Delta that created and then destroyed an entire fleet with no regard to the human impact, and it was most definitely NOT the MECs or any pilot committee that created the list. Arbitrator Bloch came up with "his" list all on his own with no regard to any of the recommendations, and most importantly NONE of the line pilots had one iota of input to the decision, they were all pawns in the world of transportation, global competition, and labor politics.

Have you ever noticed that the people that make the rules generally run banks and banks derive their power because they have YOUR money. "THEY" use "OUR" money to create new companies and then hire "US" and we bid against each other to work for the lowest rate "THEY" can negotiate, but "THEY" are using "OUR" money to empower themselves. (see the creation of Jet Blue and Southwest)

For the 3 regional airline of XJ/9E/9L scope, it should have been DOH. XJ and 9E DOH would have been fair, and 9L would have had to spend more than 15 months before upgrading to Captain. Oh no! DOH would have impeded "career expectations" of Colgan pilots. Yeah, how are those career expectations today when your airline doesn't exist.

It was all complete BS. It should have been DOH, accept, and move on. Of course, the 9E merger committee fought for only the senior 9E side of things. I heard directly from one of those 3 merger committee members that the "CRJ 900 group being a category by itself was our worse case scenario."

Ask yourself, whose worse case scenario? Certainly not mine. Only the top senior at 9E. Because our -900 category is only 16 planes and therefore a lot smaller than XJs.

You should have been on the merger committee. You could have straightened that whole mess out.

however, they were told (by many of the same people that now criticize them) "shoot for the stars or you don't represent me!" Every committee did what they thought was right for THEIR airline, this was not a "welcome aboard, neighbor" meeting. If the 9e comittee had shot for DOH there would be just as many 9e guys PO'd at them as there are now, it is a thankless job that puts you between a rock and a hard place. And many of the mid guys would feel even more "screwed" that there would be twice as many XJ guys in front of them. How many 10 year XJ guys got stuck behind 5 year 9e guys? buttloads that would be in front of them with DOH. DOH would have PO'd the entire colgan group, 75% of the 9e group and none of the XJ group. Think we would have been asking for 9e merger committee heads to roll then?

I would have if given the chance. I don't remember them asking for any volunteers in an email. They picked their own crowd. You think 9E would have wanted a guy who sided with XJ and said DOH? Remember, the 9E committee shut my thread on airlinks where I said DOH, not relative. Do the math.

First of, you cannot shoot for the moon in front of a neutral arbitrator. You have to be somewhat reasonable. The other two groups were completely reasonable from they were coming from. 9E was not. DOH would be a much better pill for everyone. It would have been easier to swallow even back then. I know I would have done at least 150-200 better. More importantly, you wouldn't have disparities with a 2008 Colgan holding RJ Captain while a 2007 9E pilot is left with nothing. As for the rest, DOH for our regionals would have been the most fairest method. Both XJ and 9E were very similar in terms of being around since the 80s or earlier. It's true XJ had the more senior group, but at least they had a flow and were having guys go to Delta. It would have created some movement. For Colgan, they knew they were screwed ever since the Feb 2009 crash. A regional cannot screw up that bad and still expect to be around. I don't think DOH would have POed 75% of the 9E group. All of the 9E FOs would have done better with DOH, because then the Colgan disparity wouldn't exist. 9E FOs make up ~ 50% of the 9E pilot group, so at worst 50% of the 9E group (CA side) would have been negatively affected by DOH. And lets be honest, it *is* BS that a 2000 or 2001 XJ pilot is behind a 2006 9E or 2007 Colgan guy. That is wrong.

I have zero skin in the game and all I can say is I think the solution was fair and equitable.

OK. so is there any single individual that read that and said "you changed my mind"?

PM me and I will PayPal you $100 if you agree.


Seriously, you can ask the guy that gets $100 if I actually paid him/her because I will publish the winners user name. . .

but I hope the winner would honestly have changed their mind although I realize it's probably not true.

can we change our mind back after the $100 is received?

Ha!

It might have been fair and equitable if there weren't such windfall type conditions and restrictions.

How do you figure it was a windfall?:confused:

There isn't a single plane left on property that was operated by pre-merger Colgan. Yet at least half of the pre-merger pilots from Colgan are still captains. If that isn't the definition of a windfall then what is?

I'd call that a good presentation by the Colgan Merger Committee.

I call it a good job.....

It is a windfall. Having a one-way fence where Colgan is protected to 193 CA seats on the Q and no XJ/9E can bid those, meanwhile Colgan Q CAs can bid to the RJs and keep reducing their quota number of 193 as they come off the Q400 onto jets. If this cycle continued and the Qs stuck around, you'd have a constant flow where current Q Captains at Colgan bid over to the jets, and they could only be replaced by Colgan FOs because the quota of 193 wouldn't be met.

That's a windfall, pure and simple. A one-way fence for no reason. And it wasn't a good presentation by the Colgan committee, it was the 9E committee that completely f'ed up and Bloch punished the 9E group by keeping them off the Qs AND the Saabs, since 9E pretended like all the Saabs didn't exist. Idiots.

Yes, I stand corrected, a great job by the CJC Merger folks.

From what I remember it wasn't a one way fence. Colgan needed to have 193 Captain slots but if we got more Q's then those slots would have been opened to ANYONE. Remember at the time of the talks, the Q was the next greatest thing since sliced bread for PCL Corp.

They are some real stand up guys. I owe them a beer.