Poll on Regional Pilot Pay
 

If it were up to you, what would 2nd year pay be for CAs and FOs on 50-, 70- and 90-seat regional jets?

..........

No...there are no 70 seaters at mainline US Airways. PSA operates CR7s, MAG operates CR9s, Republic operates the 170/175. Mainline will fly the 190 only.

CR2/EM4 CA/FO
Year 1 $50/30
Year 2 $65/39
Year 3 $69/41.40
Year 4 $72/43.20
Year 5 $75/45
Year 8 $80/48
Year 10 $85/51 (FO cap)
Year 12 $90/51
Year 15 $95/51 (CA cap)

FO pay is 60% of CA rates. CR7/E170 seat pay should be a 10% premium on 50 seat rates; CR705-900/E175-190 seat pay should be a 25% premium on 50 seat rates. Longevity for CAs on the CR7 scale and larger would go to 18 years, FOs to 12 years.

3% COLA every year.
$2.00 perdiem, up a dime every year.
3.5:1 trip rig, 2:1 duty rig, 4 hr min day credit.

Purely academic, right?:p

I like the payscale above. I think that is fine!

I am a big fan of the approximately $1 a seat for captains. Slightly higher on the lower end, slightly lower on the higher end. FO's about 60% of captain pay.
Captain of a 50 seat jet should start at $60 an hour.
First officer of a 50 seat jet should start at $30 an hour.

This 1st year pay crap is total B.S. And for some reason, EVERY airline can, and still does get away with it!! Even at GOOD airlines like FedEx, UPS, and American, you start of with crappy pay. This needs to get fixed.

UPS first year --> $33
FedEx first year --> $54
American first year --> $35
Continental first year --> $30
Northwest first year --> $30
Southwest first year --> $52
United first year --> $31

Does ANYONE see a problem here?? Not everyone will make it to widebody captain pay at these airlines, but EVERYONE will experience first year pay. This same phenomenom (sp?) is present at the regional level. $19 an hour. That is crap. $23 an hour. That is crap. Regional pilots need to start of at $30 for a jet FO. Beech 1900 and EMB-120 can start slightly lower ($25 minimum). But the way it is now needs to be fixed.


Start fighting for first year pay when your next contract negotiations come up!

What scares me more than anything is ..... 50..70.. 90 seat regional jets... What region do they serve? Was born in the wrong decade, take me back to the TWA days of 250tt and a comm ticket= connie job.

I think the pay scale above is a step in the right direction.

the reason airline pay is so low the first year is to help offset the cost of training the new hires, and also because you won't be online flying for the first few months. JMO

I agree it sucks monkey balls

I'd vote for that TA.

I would be more supportive of a payscale that is salary based - ie get rid of this "per hour" stuff all together.

If you pick up flying on your days off, it would be paid at an override of your "day rate" that is figured out based on your salary and "days available".

IOW, $30,000/yr salary, 14 days of work per month = $180/day, pick up a day trip and it would be worth $270.

Of course, contract language would have to be drafted that would increase the days off because the company could schedule 14-16 hours per day of "use" out of you (and they would, otherwise if they built pairings with 4 hours duty time it wouldn't be very efficient).

The problem with a salary is that they have no incentive to keep your workday short...mesa has no work rules and they get 6 hour lunch breaks all the time.

I prefer a payscale based on duty time...whether I fly or sit on my @ss is up to the company, but if I am at work I want to get paid. You also need a high minimum days off, say 14.

That's just it; on salary you will get paid while at work no matter what. Mesa's problem is that you can be on duty for 16 hours but make 1 hour of pay. In fact I'd rather sit around than fly any day (heck it's what we do when we are getting paid anyway :D!).

I don't think the airlines would have us sitting that much, because they will only make money off of us if we are flying. The less they fly us, the more we cost them to do less work.

It would basically mirror the way the fractionals handle compensation. I think the entire pay system needs an overhaul though. Pay per duty time would work too.

The problem with salary is that it is often convenient from a scheduling point of view for airlines to leave you sitting...as long as they get 8 hous of flying (or close to it) out of you they don't give a crap if your duty day is 9 or 16 hours. You have to get paid for duty somehow, or it will get abused and you end up sitting, wasting your time for free. Pilots who get paid to sit actually sit a lot less because it costs money and provides no return.

I disagree. Clearly you have never seen an AWAC schedule :D. Even with trip and duty rigs they sit upwards of 40 hours at overnights!!

While I agree about sitting around, if you are on salary that is what you are paid to do. You are paid to be available on the days you are working. The Company can use you however they wish.

The fractional pilots seem to have it figured out.

Pay based on duty would work too, but like you said encourage the airline to fly you. But then you might end up with 2 20 minute turns and low FAR block per day, along with 20 hour overnights. To compensate you'd need a trip rig of something like 3:1.

Why not do away with all these rigs, and just go straight salary with contractual limits to what you can be scheduled (here we are at 14-hour maximum)?

Could work, but the hourly thing is better psychologically... somehow I like the sound of the cash register clicking over as my block time builds. If I have a long flying day, at least I can feel good about the bank. If I was on salary and I had an unusually long day, then I'd just be p*ssed off. :D

Not to start something here but who do you figure works harder here. The guy walking down the jet way or the one standing at the bottom of the steps in the snow guarding the prop.

The one turning the auto pilot on and reading the sports page or the one hand flying the airplane to minimums in 40 knot gusts at an uncontrolled un plowed field in the middle of East Bum****** KS, NY, PA pick a state.

I agree its all BS. Frankly a guy flying a Aerostar single pilot IFR should be making $300/hr and the 747 guy with the 2 other crew members ought to be making the $200.00 a day.

my $.02

Ok we all do more work than a 777 Captain do does that mean we should get paid more........its not about how much "work" we do its about how much revenue or plane creates, MESA doesnt undertsand that and neither does the other 70 seat places that pay crap

That's good; we'll all just start out flying 747s with hopes of one day getting the left seat of a 421. :) I understand your comments but it's about the math. 747 guys pushes 100K+ in cargo/350+ Pax and 421 guys pushes 10K in cargo/4-6 Pax. But you're right the Aerostar pilot does have to put in his time in the ******er to get the "Big Bucks". LOL :D

I know you know this, so no bone.

In the transportation industry, It's not usually the difficulty of the job that determines the pay, but the value of the goods transported. You get paid a percentage of value...this is traditional and goes back to beginnings of history.

A 747 on a NAT run generates in the neighborhood of $1 million in revenue...in light of that it is not unreasonable to pay the captain a couple grand to get the job done.

Lawyers get 30%, a guy who runs a big factory gets 7 figures, why should pilots work for a flat rate?

If you're concerned about spelling, run a damn spell checker. You're sitting at a computer aren't you? I mean, you can Google the word and it will give you the correct spelling. I for one don't care about the spelling (although there are some on this board who really get their panties in a bunch over it) as long as the point is conveyed but if you are going to take the time to type a little (sp?) you can run a spell checker. I would rather see the word misspelled than have that stupid little (sp?) sitting next to it.

Sorry to go off topic, we will now return you to your regularly scheduled programming *rant over*

Are you serious?????????? Who kares?????????? (SP)

Haha...it was a rant SAAB, my brotha. I just hate those damn little (sp?)s:mad: Christ, if you're care enough whether or not you spelled it right and are gonna take the time to seriously type that, go bust out your spell checker! I don't give a dam if its spelld rite, eether fix it or just don't tipe the stoopid (sp?)s!!!:eek:

Here we go again. How does Mesa play into this at all? What is the 70 seat rate at Express Jet? Someone else will answer this so I won't.

One thing I think that needs to stop is this talk of racing to the bottom. As far as I am concerned this is the bottom period everywhere. WE need to start talking about climbing to the top. If someone out there that has been through a successful contract negotiation, sorry this elminates you Travis, would please share with the rest of the group how we can all better our positions I think it would serve a greater good.

For those who posted about the Aerostar/ 747 pay rate comment, I do understand economics obviously but my 3/4 full 1900 earns as much if not more than most half full 50 seat RJ's but for some reason there is a view point amongst the young men and women of the 600 hour club that this is lesser of a postion than the coveted jet FO slot. Reducing any pilot to $25,000 a year is rediculous I don't care what you are flying.

I am still not understanding why and please explain if someone knows a real answer, we cannot as an industry set a rate.

less than 30 seat Turbo Prop.

24/40 1st year FO/CA

over 30 seat

26/44

50 seat RJ

26/52

and so on.... right up to A380/B747 pay rates.

If we can take equipment pay out of the equation and remove it as a bargain chip than companies would need to find ways to compete with out robbing from thier employees. Right now the easy way is to take from those really no longer have it too give.

Sure, let's talk to ALPA and XJT Reps. Their new contract is A+.

In addition to our reasonably good relationship with management, I think one of the keys to our successful contract negotiation was that management wanted to get all the loose ends tied up ASAP in order to facilitate bidding on other flying and to help get the corporate thing off the ground (they came to us with the $18/hr override, thats like getting paid as an XJT pilot AND a first year Skywest FO at the same time!:D). So I guess the key to a successful negotiation is for management to feel some urgency. I think the Mesaba guys had the right idea with their new contract where they continue to get across the board pay increases after the contract expires rather than just having the wage increases freeze when the contract expires.

What I want to know is how the heck am I supposed to start paying back my student loans on 15K/year? I think that FO's should start at at least 28/hr. so they can pay their bills without living at a homeless shelter.

Where in the HELL are you going to work that you'll only make 15k the first year, and two, how much debt do you have?

Screw that! I think FOs should start at at least $128/hr! That way I can pay my bills without living at a homeless shelter and I can also drive a new BMW and drink away hundreds of dollars a month on beer! Whose with me guys?!:rolleyes:

15K/year? I'm with Boiler on this one... where do you work and more importantly, WHY?:confused:

Maybe hes a part time ramp rat and some silver tongued devil at ERAU told him that the best place to go to be a ramp rat was Riddle?

If you can't live off of $24/hr (first year pay here) $28/hr ain't gonna make it or break it...

My first year at a regional I brought in $27,500 including around $3,000 in per diem. Second year I hope to crack $40k-$42k including per diem.

Shiit If I was making 10 year CA pay I prolly still wouldnt be driving the car I want, or living in the huge Studio in Manhatten with the 99ft Plasma TV :), and have enough cash to go to bars and by rediculously hot girls 15$ drinks. Anybody else drop the "Express" when people ask them what airline they Fly for hehehe, come on be honest

Im not gonna lie, I do:D Especially at the bar. Usually it just makes things easier. I get tired of hearing people say "Oh, so you fly the puddle jumpers?". Yeah, I guess if you consider IAH-ONT, YYZ or Nassau a puddle, I guess I do! Thats one hell of a puddle! I used to say ExpressJet but that just confused people even more.

Tell 'em nope, just mainline routes with little airplanes.

I am kidding!

Try telling someone you fly US Air Express operated by AirMidwest which is wholy owned by Mesa airlines. Granted they usually have no idea blows from an employee standpoint but they are certainly confused about what you do.

Its nice to talk about negotiating for great new contracts and higher pay, but the sad reality is that even if you are successful negotiating a great contract, the courts have now proven that a company doesnt need uphold its end of the bargain. Dont believe me, ask a MESABA driver.

I was exaggerating about the 15k a year, but so many people took it to be serious that it must be believeable nowadays...

I drop the "express" all the time. It just makes things easier. People start asking questions and then they think you are a liar because they've never heard of an Embraer, or an airliner made in Brazil. in their minds they start thinking that it must be made out of bamboo or woven palm fronds.

Jeez, I haven't compared the whole scale, but we actually beat that for my seat!

Oh, but we will be SURE to have our pay cut soon, since we signed our contract less than a week before 9/11 blah, blah, blah. Keep telling yourselves that, MGMNT!

A new administration in DC should help the working man much more than the last one hurt them.

Do you *really* think a Democrat in the White House would do a damn bit of good for labor?

Don't want to start a debate on politics, but I've often wondered if who is in the white house has anything to do with the airlines, etc. The airlines boomed under Clinton, but under Bush have gone downhill. Is it coincidence, or is there something to it?

The airline business has always been very cyclical, much like the construction industry.

Your "clinton" boom was actually a normal upswing that was further boosted by the economy, which was benefitting from the post-cold war re-alignment of the defense industry.

The airline crash in 2001 was in reality a natural airline downtown driven by the mild recession that started in 2000...this already-in-progress downturn simply fell down the stairs on 9/11 .