One Thread to Rule Them ALL !
 

- ONE THREAD TO RULE THEM ALL -


There are a lot of good posts here on this forum about different pilot bases, airplanes, companies, interviews and training to name a few. However none of these details really matter at all in this industry of aviation if:


a. The Pay - Is not that of a Professional Pilot (Example - Current First Officer Pay
can be approx. 9.00 per hour and about 12 cents per passenger per flight hour !)


b. The Days Off- Are an extremely small number - or in another words an excessive
amount of time away from home (2-3 weeks approx./19-20 days) in
order to achieve such a small level of compensation.



I want to propose the following corrections for these two issues of both
Pay and Days Off to bring the industry up to a fair and correct standard f
or airline pilots especially in the regional airlines:


For Pay - I Propose the Following:


1. 1st- Year Pay (Or at least by the 2nd year) - First Officer = 85,000 $
2. 1st - Year Pay(Or at least by the 2nd year) - Captain = 115,000 $

(1st - Year Pay - First Officer Pay is calculated as follows)

A. Average 4-year College Graduate - 2013...........................45,000 $

B. Additional schooling above college such as graduate
school, trade school or in this case, flight school ...............25,000 $

C. Travel pay on job............................................... ...........15,000 $

This gives us a Grand Total of.....85,000 $ for 1st Year First Officer Pay



(1st - Year Pay - Captain Pay is calculated as follows)

A. Take 1st Year Officer Pay....................................85,000 $
B. Add an increase percentage for Captain Pay as
per Industry Standards.......................................30 ,000 $

This gives us a Grand Total of.......115,000 $ for 1st Year Captain Pay


(You might Say to Yourself how is all of this Achieved? I will show you below and it is quite easily done with almost no or very little expense for the passenger.)



By adding a simple fee of 5.00 - 10.00 per passenger per flight leg, Each Flight Crew will be able to generate by a very conservative estimate of between 10,000 - 20,000 additional dollars per month. This monthly total comes to 120,000 - 240,000 extra per year ! This extra revenue is then added to the current pay of the pilots which will then bring them up to the standard minimum level as proposed from above.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___



For Days Off - I Propose the Following:



1. A Minimum of 15 days off for every 30 day month / or a Minimum of 16 days off for all 31 day months - this is regardless of Seniority.

(Remember this is the starting minimum for all Pilots from Day One.
This is very much needed. Remember that 15 days on the job
can represent being away from home over half the month or close to 6
months away from home per year. To the average person this is a
huge amount of time away from home, however for many pilots with
only 11 days off or less per month, this represents a huge
improvement !)



In Addition to the Days off Proposal from Above - other items for scheduling to consider would be:


1. Create super efficient trips when able

2. Give 1-2 days of Personal Time off per Month (That can be used
or banked)

3. Each Pilot regardless of seniority gets at least 1-2 weekends off
per month

4. Each Pilot regardless of seniority gets at least 1-2 holidays off per year (Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Labor Day, New Years Day)

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________



So Now that we have the Proposals of:

　

1. 85.000 $ Pay for First Officers - First Year Pay (Minimum - at least by
the second year)


2. 115,000 $ Pay for Captains - First Year Pay (Minimum - at least by
the second year)

3. 15-16 days minimum off per month (30 day month / 31 day month)



And One of the Solutions to Achieve this is:


　

1. Adding 5.00 - 10.00 $ approximately Per Passenger Per Flight Leg



We can now start on the road to achieve this ! And now is the best time ever to get this going because of:



1. Pilot Shortage - both now and coming !


2. Exceptional Pilot Leverage - that which is available !


3. Current and Extreme Conditions of :

a. Lost Wages Over the Years (Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars
Possibly - Example, if the job is worth
85,000 per year for a First Officer and
he or she is making just 30,000 per year
and has worked for a total of 7 years,
this represents a minimum of Lost Wages
of up to a staggering 385,000 !)



b. An Unfair Lack of Days Off and time at Home and with the Family
(Away for Approximately 2-3 weeks away from Home per Month !)



c. Present Work Conditions (Poor Scheduling which has been Inducing:
Chronic Fatigue, Adverse Work Conditions , Compromised Health, Family
and Social Issues, etc.)



__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________



　

The Only Way to Achieve these Proposals and for What is Truly Just and Fair for our Profession is that all of the Pilots must come together !




I am thus Proposing that all of the Regional Pilots come together and .................................................. ............Form One Group !




Not only will this help the Regionals but it can help to start the process of helping the Major Airlines as well in which many of us wish to get to one day.

　


　
I call upon all Regional Pilots, including but not limited to:




Skywest


ASA


ExpressJet


American Eagle


Mesa


Republic


Air Wisconsin


Horizon


Pinnacle


PSA


Piedmont


Trans States


Island Air


Great Lakes


Silver Airways


Compass


All Others (As not mentioned from above)

　

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

　

Let me know what you think and lets begin a starting point together of communication to form One Pilot Group for all of us, our families and all future pilots as well !

This idea gets posted here about once a year.

The first regional to offer this would lose all their contract flying, go into the red and bankrupt. If all the regionals got together at the same time, which won't happen. The mainline carriers will just do the flying themselves at a much lower cost structure. (See ERJ 190 pay rate at US/AMR) That's a larger airplane than a scoped regional jet (76 seats), and the pay is less than stellar, but better than current regional pay. I think the world will have to offer that someday to get pilots wanting to be pilots again, but right now, not going to happen.

25K for flight fees?

Who's high?

While take home pay has gone down, overall compensation has gone up, you can thank the insane rising cost of healthcare for that.

alright! yeah! woohoo!

Start a new industry from an anonymous internet forum, hazaah!!!!!!


Good luck with that

Great idea but no execution. We have a hard enough time getting one union between all the regionals. Plus, there will ALWAYS be sellouts to this profession. The consequences of doing such are not strict enough.

All it takes is another GoJet, Independence Air, or created company to low ball with promise of quick upgrades. Pilots will and have joined these companies despite being threatened of being a blacklist/scabs. Scabs don't care, or determine that THEIR financial needs require them to have a job. Being blacklisted to deny jumpseats/no fly does not have a big enough impact on them. In case of a denied jumpseat, they can just move to base. For a no/fly list, it does not effect the individual. They are simply reassigned another pilot, that does not know.

The other problem is crews do not enforce the blacklist/scabs. Many are afraid of being punished by their company. The other issue is lateral jumpseat agreements with loss of jumpseat privlages. Other people say "You are childish" for denying a jumpseat. However, you reap what you sow, IMO.

And I want my friggin PONY!

One list, one contract, one voice....

Wow!! That's a ton of work!

Have you ever heard of internet porn? You should check it out man :)

Good idea but there is ALWAYS someone who will do the job for for less!

Something about an equis and a hamster comes to mind....but that's just me.

This is why RJ pilots will remain bottom feeders. The OP has put in quite a lot of time coming up with some really good points, but can barely get support here. The RJ pilot group has been properly conditioned and whipped into obedience and submission. If I stood in front of the terminal in ORD with a picket to draw attention to my 28k a year pay(6 years, 2 airlines), how many of you fellow RJ pilots in the same boat would join me? Exactly. None. Reason? Fear. We have plenty of leverage to DEMAND better terms, but as we are unable to come together as a group (let alone on this forum) things will not change. Just lots and lots of talk. Which is why I don't post here very much, all we do is talk. So what am I doing about it you ask? Well, hopefully by November I will be flying 737s in the desert. Hate to drag wifey and the boy over there, and I'm gonna miss Cleveland center, but I'm breaking out of this chain gang. Thank you for reading.
BTW OP, Bravo Zulu.

I have an easier solution, and it's tax free.


Tip jar. A friend of mine has a co-worker who made 6 grand in a single summer with one.

Maybe the copilot could also be a barista.

It's not that the OP doesn't have a nice wishlist, it's that the OP has zero method to get there other than hold hands and sing.

Nope not good enough, I don't see anything about personal back rubs from the FA's "between legs"...

I kid I kid!!!!

Yep, nailed it, all you need to look at is republic and gojet

You couldn't be more correct. Pilots love to act like hotshots, puff their chests out, brag about their boats, motorcycles and type A take charge personalities but overall the US pilot population are spineless, weak little terrified puppets...

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...01-d53s519.gif

The fast food workers in this country have a bigger back bone then the pilot population and make more money...lmao

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ities/2726815/

What scabs are at regionals? I can't think of a single regional that has any.... maybe some old united ones from a long time ago? You lost me on this.

we all need to focus on PSA and the next regional they go to turning down these concessionary contracts. obviously what the OP suggested will never happen

Comair had a couple... Since they were about the only regional to strike, it makes sense they are the only ones with scabs.

They are most likely retired or not flying anymore

One thread to rule them all? Damn, I was just to getting use to putting my regional up on a pedestal, selling myself short and backstabbing other regionals.

That's a great idea but where to do put it. Do you wear it on your back or something? Have the FA hold it while the PAX deplane? Then divvy it up? I never got tips in Charter flying because the general public thinks I am rich pilot. If we all showed up to work in tights, running shoes and an apron things may be different.

Get creative. If you can't figure out where to put the tip jar, you don't deserve the tips.

:D

Besides... just make a flight bag sticker out of your W2, that way you have some solid evidence to convince pax that you're not a 'rich pilot.'

Good job for the OP.

Too bad most all of the replies here are from are spineless wimps that seem to have been whipped into submission by airline management.

What surprises me is that I have seen pilots who are much older and have much more to lose stand up to management. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, but at least they have the guts and integrity to fight for their futures.

Young pilots who are frightened by airlines into agreeing to contracts that are shameful to the industry need to stop arguing in favor of their overlords and grow a pair. After all, what have you got to lose?? A job that pays minimum wages in the face of an industry that is short of pilots! It would not take very long to get another airline job in this economy. Starting over after one or three or five years is nothing compared to the pilots from the majors who have twenty years invested and then stand up and fight for their compensation. Besides, if you get furloughed, you sometimes have preferential hiring at other union carriers.

So stop bashing the guy who comes up with the balls to try to rally support for your future and back him up with some constructive arguments and ideas instead of spending so much time and effort working against yourselves.

Argue for your limitations and they are yours.

8

I like this. Good work on the OP!! Stop the whipsaw!!

While many of you seem content to wallow in fear of the straw man management has created, I propose the following.

We have a grass roots effort underway. Its growing daily.

I propose that we collectively inform our respective managements that there will be a cessation of service beginning two days before Thanksgiving, at which point, its incumbent upon each member of the STW movement to do the right thing and add themselves to the sick roster, fatigue, go out on disability or resign.

At this point we will be in a position to make demands. If jets go to mainline, good. That is where most of us want them and they will need us to pilot them.

November 26th, the day that will begin the season of our discontent.

Many of you have endured enormous student loans, broken marriages, families, relationships, financial hardship, fatigue and compromised health to work for $9 per hour. It stops Nov 26th.

And don't lecture me about the legality of this. It should be illegal for a company to steal from us, a union too.

What is it going to take for you guys to realize that 'WE' have all the control?

"Now is the winter of our discontent / Made glorious summer by this son of York" Shakespeare - Richard III

Yeah, but those old guys had flown freight, checks, or something else. They weren't hired with 250 hours or worse yet, paid for a job because, "It'll get me to the mainline sooner."

I'm sorry, but If we are going to expect to be treated as professionals then we need to act like professionals. As a professional, you are expected to act with integrity. If you are sick, call in. If you are not, don't. If you are fatigued, call in. If you are not, don't. If you are medically qualified for LOA, take it. If you aren't, don't. If you are being treated unfairly, then do something about it in line with the professionalism expected of this industry. You can quit, you can organize a strike, you can volunteer with your union, or you can become a part of management, all of which will allow you the opportunity to make a change and maintain your professionalism. If you lie to get where you want to go, you will find that the end does not necessarily justify the means, and you will become that which you despise.

The pay should be better and the QOL should be better but we got into this industry knowing how it was and chose to stay. Quit or work to make a difference, but don't lie, cheat or steal to get there. You won't be an airline pilot forever, but you will have to live with yourself.

Really? I would rather that management be very afraid of us and never meddle with us like this again. You will note that I left resignation as an option. The decision to use any one of these weapons is based on the individual.

Volunteer for the Union? We cannot even have discussions with other pilot groups, who are represented outside of group, without the permission of Mr. Moak. Organizing a strike is illegal.

We will be professionals when we can leverage our abilities to achieve the compensation that they deserve. I would use, and have, and will continue to use any and all of these tools, up to an including but not limited to resignation, in order to see my profession restored to the dignity that it deserves and to light management's straw man on fire. You are right, I won't be an airline pilot forever. If the PSA TA passes, my resignation letter is already written.

Diplomacy is well and good. The opportunity for management, including ALPA National, to treat us like human beings is long gone.

No fear! Nov 26.

From an independent source: A professional is someone who has completed formal education and training in one or more profession. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform the role of that profession. In addition, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations. Professional standards of practice and ethics for a particular field are typically agreed upon and maintained through widely recognized professional associations.

I never once saw the term "leverage" or "fear" in that definition. We obvio isla have a difference of opinion. Good luck with your method.

The terms leverage and fear are uniquely familiar to me. Good luck with yours.

Not to say that two "wrongs" make a "right" but what are professional pilots to do if they adhere to the definition and airline management does not?

The value of the pilot profession is being flushed down the tubes these days by regional airline management (and many majors, ACMIs, charters, etc., too) in hot pursuit of lower operating costs and greater profits. The problem, however, does not rest with what pilots are being paid, but with what passengers are being charged. In theory, pilots could fly for free and airlines would simply drop their fares in competition with one another until they were at the same razor thin margins that they are today. Then who would they blame?

Pilots are not the problem.

Taking back the profession "professionally" starts with the pilot groups that are in negotiations or are about to sign a contract right now.

Stand up and stand strong for your profession.

Refuse to vote for anything but a quantum leap forward in your contract. There has been no better time to do this, maybe ever. Airlines don't offer $5000 signing bonuses and classes typically never go completely unfilled in times of pilot surpluses. We have the upper hand and it is time to take advantage of the supply vs demand market we have.

Look as far ahead as you possibly can into your future and the future of your chosen profession and determine what is right for you and do not base your decision on todays immediate wants. The professional pilot industry was, at one point, something to be admired because of the courageous determination of early airline pilots who stood up and faced their employers and demanded professional wages for professional work.

We have lost this ability, to a large extent, in recent times. It is time to take it back.

It is possible to make the any airline a career destination that has livable wages you can be proud of.

You may have to work for it, however.

8

I agree with working hard to make this a better profession. I don't agree with dishonest behavior, regardless of what management, or anyone else, is doing. Wrong is wrong.

There is noting illegal about resignation. Nothing illegal about being sick or tired (this includes mental anguish) and nothing illegal about being disabled.

Nov 26th

you have the floor.

I never said there was. I said dishonesty was wrong.

Thanks for the comments and opinions. I really liked those of RJ2Driver, DC8 Driver and 200 Driver. I would like to respond to a
couple of opinions and points made below:



1. First of all - I want to say that making one pilot group is
very do-able.All you have to do is the following:


a. Demand a Fair wage for:

- University Graduate = 45,000 for 2013 average

- Additional Schooling = 25,000(when you complete additional schooling
above college such as medical school, dental
school, law school, accounting or flight school)

- Extensive Travel time = 15,000


This adds up to a grand total of 85,000 $ for a First Year First Officer / Or 115,000 $ For a First Year Captain (85,000 FO Pay plus 30,000 for industry upgrade)


b. Demand a Just Number of Days of:

- 15 days off per 30 day month / 16 days off per 31 day month


c. Then after you have decided Yes to both A and B (Pay and Days off), come together as a group and form One Pilot Group in which to implement these new "Starting Standard Minimums for All Flight Crews"



I Truly Believe all Pilots both "Want" and "Deserve" these things. I also want you say that:


a. These are not a wish list of items, they are things that we as pilots deserve by:

- Going to the University

- Going to Flight School

- Instructing for Many Years

- Flying Commercial Passenger Aircraft For many Years

- Being Away from our Families for up to 2-3 weeks away from Home

- Spending Countless Years and Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars on
Schooling and Living Expenses in order to be Able to Start at Day one
while only making 9 dollars an hour and about 12 cents per passenger
per flight hour,all while being away from home for 2 to up to 3 weeks
per month, while flying most if not all weekends and holidays of the year
for one to many years !


b. That there would be no chance of getting undercut by a startup airline
company such as suggested in this thread.Why is this so?
It is because:


- No single startup company could ever cover all or even come close
to covering all of the flying here in the United States as that of a group
of a 15 Plus - Combined Regional Airline Group in which we are going to
try to come up with !

- With the Formation of this "Single Regional Pilot Group" and it's
benefits, who would want to go to any other place?

- Even if there were pilots that would want to go to a startup regional
that paid and treated them poorly, it would be very hard to find these
pilots in this great time of the "Present and Coming Pilot Shortage" !


Here are some of the factors of the pilot shortage both present to future

a. Mass Retirees - as the age 65 rule started to kick in last december

b. Mass Hirings - that are starting up slowly as we speak
(American 1500 pilots, Us Airways, Delta, United, etc)

c. 1500 - ATP Rule that just went into effect this August

d. New Rest Rules in January

e. Fewer Military Pilots joining the airlines as they are being more retained

f. Pilots that are going overseas for better pay and benefits

g. Lack of student loans being given - (defaults,low starting salary, etc)

h. Small number of ATP graduates (This last year aprox 170 Plus)

i. Flight Schools - many that are closed or at low capacity and
some surviving mostly by foreign students for
cheaper training.

I guess I'm about to be "that guy." That payscale for a first year FO is ridiculous. Seriously. I didn't make that as a military pilot until I was well into my 8th year, and only because I lived in a high cost of living area. Our FO equivalent, the 2nd pilot, is really nothing more than deadweight for their 1st year or so, but it's a rapid learning curve and their usefulness increases rapidly. I strongly support probation pay as well as frequent progress reviews for first years, and after that, let the floodgates open. But not too much - there's alot to be said for having the responsibility solely on your shoulders.

Dial back captain pay, increase FO pay, and raise pay across the board for all regional airlines. There needs to be a LIVING wage, and it needs to be managed for all employees in accordance with good business practices. However, you cannot expect ONE pilot group to be able to fix this, it's just bad business.

The only thread worth reading. Although almost just a fairy tale in this country, livable wages are a possibility and we all have the right to demand for them. We all may have different opinions on what to do about it but we are all in agreement that it's far from where in needs to be. Unify, organize and you'll get what you want. FO wages are surely the biggest issue. If they weren't so bad it would just be easy to quit and start over somewhere else that treats you better.