Don't forget the 85% of yes voters at 9E and 60% at PSA are to blame as well...

President Obama and Lee Moak are not responsible. You are right. Other people are responsible.

Lee Moak gets what he wants. He pulled all the stops at Eagle to get them to buy concessions when they are no pilots to hire.

Then he got PSA to buy this unthinkable deal.

Don't insult us with Captain Moak is not to blame. He should be banding the regional pilots together to ensure $50,000/yr is the minimum starting pay for flying a 50 seat jet.

President Moak works for management. Plain and simple.

Show us where he ever says the concessions extorted in Chapter 11 are no longer necessary.

You have yours and you have pulled up the ladder.

I'm assuming you're responding to me. I agree, Moak is worthless to regional pilots (honestly, to all pilots). He is fostering good relationships between management and pilots, at the expense of pilots. He tries to act neutral, but his actions are negative to pilots. We're in agreement there.

At the same time, it isn't his job to help MECs through the negotiations process. He's far above basic management of his airlines' MECs. He's too busy furthering his political agenda on Capitol Hill. Further, no one at national assumes that managerial type role to each MEC. The MECs operate as I described above (cities; federal government).

I haven't pulled the ladder up on anyone, as I'm still climbing it. I've been in the industry nearly 10 years at the regional level, and spent an eighth of that in the left seat. I'm concerned with raising the bar, and outing those individuals at select airlines who have greedily and stupidly set our industry even further back in a time of prosper at the major airlines.

Moak and the other morons at National aren't directly to blame for these agreements. Sure, they should have stepped in when concessions were put on the table, but the Negotiating Committees and MEC entertained, and agreed to these concessions. Just because no one told them not to isn't a valid excuse. These are adults, who have been entrusted to make wise choices (on their own accord) on behalf of their pilots. They did not do that. Instead, they have done them (and all of us) a great disservice by acting foolishly.

Ya, again, I know this.
My gripes with local and National are separate and unique to each. It's just easier to curse the whole lot in one breath when one is making a general gripe.

actually it is nationals fault. if they see the mec is doing harm to the profession then it is there duty to step in to stop it but they don't they are on the other side. ALPA MOTO never fight for anything as long as we keep dues coming.

Packrat, it's time you face some hard realities. Yes, MEC's and NC's negotiate...but the do so with the financial axe of ALPA over their heads. If you don't take the deal ALPA wants you to take as they watch the $$ flow to the process, you get the "take the deal and go sell it to your people or we will have to "rethink" how we fund your MEC and commitees" speech. Don't waste your time telling me it doesn't happen, I've heard it face to face since the term of Hank Duffy. Just like he did when he rolled over on pee testing. What you don't understand is that no MEC or NC has any real power in terms of a contract. If you LOOK at the charter, you'll find that ALPA has the bargaining rights for every carrier. The Presidents signature isn't a "photo op"...he's the only one who can accept or reject a deal. And if he so chose, he could direct the negotiations and present the deal to a pilot group. To save the firestorm and keep the masses silent, he doesn't...but he DOES send "experts" to "assist." Unless you are a legacy with deep pockets that feed the ALPA coffers. Then you can go outside and hire your own and keep people like Cohen, Weiss and Surrender FAR away. (Which is a damn shame, because in the old days old man Weiss would have told folks like Prater and Moak where to shove it...but that's a different story)

You took a "no strike" clause for pay stability? You sold your only leverage for any future gowth or increases for stability? Do you understand what you gave up? And what you did to the rest of the industry by agreeing to that precedent? Even better, you bought into the ALPA line about that. A line they came up with because they didn't want to bear the cost of a potential strike or member assessments. Heaven forbid we stand like men...let's just take the crumbs and hope for a better day.

ALPA has been viewed for the past 30 years as a paper tiger in DC. The last time anyone who was an ALPA carrier showed a set was at EAL when they stood up for the industry against Lorenzo. And they got sold down the river when the DAL pilots complained to Duffy about having to pay strike assessments to their ATL competition...so Duffy sent his ExAdmin Randy Babbitt; an EAL pilot and SON of one of an EAL pilot...to tell the EAL guys that it was, "time to cut the burning lifeboats loose." ALPA protecting ALPA. Trade unionism meant nothing from that day forward.

Every so called strike since then was for a carriers self interest...not the industry. IF ALPA had any serious direction, they would have been lockstep on every carrier that has gone on strike; regional and legacy. Never happened. Babbitt was once asked by a senior UAL Captain if he knew why he was elected. He said, "to represent you in DC." The Captain said, "No, we elected your A** to go to stand up to a judge and go to jail for us." You never saw a guy leave a meeting so fast.

Prater was a joke who openly said he had "Potomac fever" and was stupid enough to believe that it would lead to a cushy K Street (Lobbyist) job. Moak knew better. His K Street job was in the bag BEFORE he got elected. His job at DALPA and now at National was to help dismantle the regionals. He's doing a damn fine job and his minders are thrilled. He'll be fine and won't think twice of you as he waltzes out the door as Mass. Avenue to his new gig.

The GOOD staffers at ALPA...the unionized folks who really care and have done the work for all pilots over the years...have been brutalized. All the way up and down the chain, they see the end coming soon.

WOW.....Sticky this.

Nicely done.

Very nicely said

That doesn't make much sense, considering the number of major pilots belonging to ALPA currently exceeds the number of regional pilots belonging to ALPA.

So Moak went to all the PSA road shows then? He influenced the majority of PSA pilots to vote YES? Oh, do tell how. Please.

Great post, except for this part. The President's signature should be more than a photo op, but under the current administration (Moak) it isn't. My current airline just finished negotiations and I'm certain he couldn't tell you a single thing about our contract. He won't know anything about it until one of his handlers hands him a bullet point version on the flight to Minneapolis.

What experts would those be? An accountant to cost out improvements? A young attorney? Don't think we saw any of those at Compass. Perhaps they're all tied up with their cash cows, UAL and DAL.

Incorrect. The attorneys that "Majors" pilot groups use while negotiating during Sec 6 are provided by ALPA National. They do not go out and hire their own attorneys. That would defeat the purpose of paying dues.

Yeah, it was interesting. However the fact that he was totally wrong about how ALPA National "finances" the MECs. He obviously has NEVER been an MEC Secretary/Treasurer. If he had any experience in that job he would have been embarrassed to post what he did.

Considering how far off base he was on that subject, I give him the same level of credibility on the rest of his post.

Anyone who has been on the inside of an MEC during contract negotiations KNOWS all National can do is advise. If the individual MEC refuses to acknowledge and follow National's advice, things can go bad VERY quickly.

National only signs the final product AFTER it has been negotiated, agreed to and ratified. National's signature is really just a formality.

But, let's NEVER stop facts from interfering with people's belief in cockpit stories.

Formality my wrinkled arse!

Packrat, I think you've been drinking too much Koolaid brother.. - come back to us!

..Once upon a time I was a sitting MEC member and I can categorically tell you that you are the one who is incorrect. What may be happening here is that you have been lied to by people you believe in. ALPA pilot groups are notoriously manipulated and micromanaged by their MEC's who are mere puppets of National. They seek committee and MEC members that will "play ball" and who are easily subservient toward the overall agenda of National. They are not above lying and blatant manipulation.

There were several occasions where our MEC was hamstrung by National on what we wanted to do budget wise..they simply would not approve anything they felt would deteriorate whatever goal they were currently working towards. We were threatened with budget reductions by National on more than one occasion.

Though MEC's have "on paper" control over their budgets there is still very real oversight by National. If you don't understand that then I urge you to start asking some questions.

All that being said I won't discount the possibility that things are different at your carrier. But you also need to concede that things aren't quite as "on paper" rosey schmosey on other properties..ALPA has real problems with how it represents Regional pilot groups...The blame is just as much on National as it is on Local MEC's for crap wages and crap CBAs. It's a complete failure of the union from the top down, not a single sided conundrum.

Mag,

You obviously weren't S/T. Because you apparently have no clue how the budget works. Either that or your MEC blew the SMRA on Flight Pay Loss every year.

Caveat: You may have a point about the purse strings. I seem to recall that National was forced to ship additional moneys above and beyond their MEC accounts and SMRA to some regional airlines since their dues levels were so pathetic.

Having said that, National does not negotiate, approve or ratify any individual airline's contracts. They pro forma sign them after the deal is delivered. National's role is advisory only. If you don't take their advice and screw the pooch, that's a YOUR MEC problem.

I'm pretty sure ALPA national's lawyer that was in the room during the negotiations attended some of the PSA roadshows.

We were told this particular lawyer was THE lawyer at national.

Regardless of him being there or not a lot of what was told to us during the roadshows was heavily influenced on this lawyer's opinions on the quality of the TA.

I think it would be safe to assume that this lawyer has a close relationship with Moak.

He just owned all of you dumb richards crying "ALPA National can't tell the MECs what to do..."

Read what he said and take it to heart.

This union is here to protect ALL of us. Just trying to prevent the Abu Dhabi pre-clear facilty isn't gonna cut it. This union as a WHOLE needs to SACK UP and put their damm foot down and say ENOUGH.

alpa national lawyers represent alpa national. that is who pays them with your dues money.

Of course one of ALPA attorneys were present during PSA's negotiations. They're supposed to be. That's one of the services provided by your dues dollars. It's their job to provide legal advice during negotiations. Said attorney's relationship with LM is irrelevant. The OP claimed that LM convinced PSA pilots to vote YES on their latest TA. It's a statement which is clearly false.

So you think the best lawyer ALPA has was assigned to a 500 pilot regional airline? And said best lawyer, with an direct line to Moak, ushered the NC and MEC into negotiating the worst TA in exchange for growth in ALPA history?

Wow, your MEC and NC have you guys in the palm of their hands. They fleeced you big time.

It's their fault. Accept it, and do something about it. Recall their asses and make them prove to YOU why they deserve to represent you.

For what it's worth, ALPA employs approximately 20 attorneys all of whom answer to 2 directors of representation. Those 2 report to Moak. I'd be floored in any of those attorneys (beyond the older ones who have been around for 10-20 years) have spoken to Moak outside of a drunken conversation at the Board of Directors Meeting. In case your wondering, that's where all of ALPA and the MECs go to a resort in Florida and get loaded for 3 days of "meetings."

Except he's wrong. Unfortunately, 90% of ALPA pilots don't have a clue what ALPA does. They're more interested in working on their golf swing or their next ski trip.

Its amazing how much you learn if you volunteer and actually work within the system.

Its not perfect. But, the drivel posted in threads like this are is so far out to lunch its laughable.

that is your position, my position is straight up and alpa is for mainline only pilots and screw regional pilots. just as moak.

I will agree with one thing you've said. ALPA has tried to be everything to everyone. ALPA should never have gotten into the Regional "business".

Just so I'm sure. You're saying that there is essentially ONE person between the representation lawyers and Moak and they only communicate once per year? No emails. No memos. No phone calls. Not even indirectly. So when these lawyers go to do their job if its the day before this Board of Directors meeting the information that they are working with is a year old?

I wasn't saying that moak convinced us to do anything.

National's lawyers be it the "best" or the "worst" operate under ALPA's doctrine, or try to push current goals.

They are directed to do SOMETHING by SOMEONE. They don't just make it up as they go.

It's foolish to think Moak has no hand in any of it.

Bottom line it's an absolute disgrace that at a time like this contracts have been signed:

-One at DAL mainline to add more large RJs for pay raises
-Another at Endeavor Air (and other regionals) to fly those large RJs under concessions.

In the same "union" you have mainline pilots taking pay raises while regional pilots take pay cuts.

After moving from a regional up to mainline I can see what is so clearly driving all this. The old don't care about the young, and will never spend a dime of negotiating power to look out for the next generation for pilots.

Pulling the ladder up, one contract and scope concession at a time.

Shame on Moak, and shame on all of ALPA national for letting these events transpire.

ALPA's days are numbered. With Airways going the way of APA, Air Tran to SWAPA, Comair's shut down transferred to GoJet flying being "Teamsters", Skywest being the "super regional" ….the slippery slope keeps getting steeper.

You misunderstood. The run of the mill ALPA lawyer doesn't have any interaction with Moak whatsoever (except for the chance meeting at BOD). Their bosses communicate with Moak.

Like I told someone else on this thread, your dreams of a chain of command from Moak down to the NC isn't realistic. Ask any NC Chairman if their attorney helped them set goals or actually negotiated anything beyond the sections of the contract that deal with discipline, representation, arbitration or any other legal process.

The answer will be no.

^^^THIS^^^ How is it that MY UNION tells me to accept a massive concessionary contract while at the same time giving DALPA pilots my concessions?
I agree that ALPA never should have gotten into the regional business. It is a MASSIVE conflict of interest. WHo puts more $ into the ALPA purse? DL pilots or 9E pilots? 'Zactly. The regionals will never win in tis game.

The regional pilots of today are gonna be the mainline pilots of tomorow, and the majority of regional pilots who deal with ALPA are sick of this organization.

And like has been said before. It is absolutely unbelieveable that our UNION put in a strike prevention clause in our contract. That is the ONLY card that we have to play. What is ALPO doing for us that we couldn't do for ourselves in the regionals? Oh, go look at SKW. That's what.

I knew it was only a matter of time before this statement came out... just volunteer bro!

Sometimes I wonder how many volunteers it takes to run ALPA? Everyone wants you to volunteer but when you ask, they tell you we will be in touch when we need you (my experience at least).

Just so we all understand. A volunteer means you are not getting paid.
Getting paid to do ALPA work, is a job.

The ALPA lawyer was at the PSA meeting I attended but he didn't say a word.
When I questioned some of the TA's contents, the MEC was short and stern. He doesn't like being questioned. The offer from Airways to PSA was a take it or leave it offer. They most likely would have closed down PSA if it didn't pass. ALPA should have a goal for regionals. Their plan seems to be to degrade the industry so much that it would be impossible to staff. Thereby forcing management to make positive changes. I doubt it will work.

I owe you beer(s). Seriously.

I am very happy to see mainline pilots getting pay raises, and I'm glad our companies are very profitable. Now why in the heck are regionals being forced into take concessions or die situations???? And the situation is concessions for *bigger* RJs. Especially given the new ATP law, what gives???

Is management trying to force regionals into such an untenable situation that the government is forced to act and fix their hedonistic blunder? For example opening the door to multi crew licenses?

You have just laid out the case for why ALPA won't survive. It has nothing to do with "getting into" the regional business and EVERYTHING to do with NOT getting into it.

In the early 80's when the legacies were still running around trying to protect their "post CAB" turf, ALPA was too myopic to see the future. Instead of getting together and forming a "farm team" concept, they fought the "commuters" as pond scum, beneath their dignity. (This from the same guys who got hired in the '60's with 250 hours and a wet Comm/Inst ticket.

The managements saw the bar fight coming and realized it was the perfect storm. They would use the "commuters" to feed the mainline and get those guys the time they wanted. The MEC's and ALPA crapped on those guys and created a built in animus between the soon to be new hire legacy pilots and the old guys. The old guys, protecting their own backs, voted in B scales and other nice things to screw the junior guys.

Another generation of eating your young was born, SERVED UP by ALPA.

Had ALPA stood up and said, "they come on the master list of the legacy they feed, and they get first crack at a job...with flow back if the legacy furloughs..." and the MEC's stood up for the now "regionals" when they were getting hammered on their first contracts...this industry would be vastly stronger and we wouldn't have seen the ongoing cycle of give back, fight back and give bank again.

"Long term pay security? Give us a no strike" "Snap backs? More hours for less pay." On and on. Look at the cycle. It takes about 10 years to almost get back, and then the economy pushes it all away. And ALPA's response? Shoot the regionals. Bruce York said it..."if we didn't have to deal with pilots, ALPA would be a great place." Ask the unionized staff how they get treated in negotiations. The name Lorenzo comes up. Why did the NMB make them post PAGES of a ruling on the doors over the way they violated labor law during negotiations...and illegally FIRED 6 people...including a senior contract administrator?

ALPA has some real issues on their hands. The TWA lawsuit settlement will cost with a B as in Billion plus. Yes, they have insurance to pay it. After that, it will be tough to get insurance. The UAL suits are out there.

And then there is DAL. If the group has the cards to drop...and I'm betting they have them and are just waiting...it's over.

Why? Simple. Because the outcome of the vote won't matter. UAL/CAL is NOT going to be the last legacy there waiting to shut off the lights. They too will run a decert drive and race DAL to the door. Either one leaves? ALPA hasn't got the cashflow to survive. It implodes.

And the legacies that they have all crapped on will suddenly be their new best friends.

They're not stupid. They remember how they got the shaft.

Thanks to ALPA, another generation of our young will be eaten. This time however, they WILL remember. And if a legacy calls, they will go...picket line or not. Because the paper tiger is gone.

Management; who began playing the "long game" post CAB...will have won over ALPA's "short game."

We will all find out that as far as they are concerned, we are not much more than glorified bus drivers who haul passengers, or truckers who haul freight.

"But we'll STRIKE!!" you say. "Go ahead," they will counter. "Those regional guys who flew glass are waiting...and they REMEMBER"

Packrat, you really should stick to things you know...and brother, this ain't your wheelhouse.

An ALPA contract is not valid until it is signed by the President. HE controls the bargaining rights for EACH ALPA carrier.

As to this:

The first thing you get taught in law school is to NEVER ask a question...or make a statement of fact...that you don't already know the answer to.

Clearly you didn't go to law school and clearly you have NO clue about this one. I'll save you the embarrasment of outlining my background, suffice to say it's a fair assumption on my part that you were in high school when I held my first elected post and was on an MEC.

I've had the pleasure/displeasure of being a rep for 6 years and ATCsaidDoWhat has pretty much hit the nail on the head in EVERY aspect.

Outstanding ALPA Leadership for Regionals
 

This was forwarded to me by a Delta Pilot

http://www.youtube.com/embed/FmssZBsyx5M

couette is an a zz 24/7

Then, your experience is 42 years out of date as are your observations.

One of these days pilots will realize the same rules and laws all other employee groups everywhere in the world already know too well. The only wage an employer is forced to pay is the min wage, nothing more, nothing less! Doesn't matter how many rules/laws the congress or FAA changes!

Point made, never mind.

...............

Pilots are their own worst enemy. ALPA has become a corporation. The pilots won't help themselves, ALPA won't help regionals at the expense of majors, and for some of you to argue the good ALPA has done for the bottom feeders is laughable, at best. If this latest TA at XJT doesn't finally get them the boot, I guess they will survive anything.