LAFF, are you currently training at ATP??

 

No........

 

Why not LAFF? Please explain why. You said the big picture was getting from A to B, right? Getting from that first crumby flying job to that 747 flying across the oceans, right? What lines aren't you going to cross? Ever thought about what it is that people in this industry don't like about scabs and alter-ego airlines? It's not just because someone told us not to like them (unless you are one of those people who let others make up your mind for you). It is that they are willing to undercut their brothers and sisters for their own gain. How is that undercutting any different than working for ATP at $6/hr and undercutting all the other hard working, independent CFIs out there who?

The only difference is that CFIs aren't unionized. What if you go to work at ATP as one of their $6 CFIs. A few months after you start your fellow CFIs are fed up and decide they want to improve working conditions by raising wages and establishing duty limits. What are you going to do? You wouldn't be crossing a picket line (since there is no union) if you decided to continue working there rather than support your fellow CFIs. What if the management decides to cut costs and fire all of their current CFIs. But don't get too upset! They will rehire you at $5/hr through a different company title? What would you do? You don't want to give up all your ME time and fast time building, do you? Why won't you work for Mesa? Is it the low pay? Is it the poor work rules? Why? Because ATP has both (low pay, poor work rules) in abundance. The only difference is that a place like Mesa offers moderate protection against abuse from management in the form of a union.

You are right in your assessment about ATP being a good deal for their customers (students) I will not argue that point with you because I agree 100%. They are great for their customers and keep costs down in the same way companies like GoJets and Mesa keep costs down for their customers (the majors).

PS
Pinnacle, great choice... I bet you get real excited when they tell you that they are the lowest cost 50 seat operator out there. But its good for their customer (NWA), right?

 

Hey, I've been there!

 

Personal observations:

Those that spend some time instructing are not only more knowledgable about basic flying/instrument skills, but are also easier to put up with on a 4 day trip.

Most (not all) that go to accelerated training programs and PFT seem to be trying to dodge the instruction phase and get on with a 121 carrier.

That is all. Just what I've noticed, in my limited experiences.

 

There's been alot of changes at 1K1 in the past few years(runway, FBO)...hope to get back and visit next year. A few Stearmans on the field now too!

 

THEY don't pass anyone. The DE's do. And if you've flown with them to know that they are "unqualified," then your company passed them, too. And what does being female have to do with it anyway? All the weak pilots that I knew were guys. The females that I flew with at ATP were some of the strongest pilots in the lot.

 

First, ATP doesn't pay their CFI's $6/hr. Not sure where that came from, but as a former instructor there, the pay is $1,200/month. And if you need a place to stay, they'll furnish you with an apartment for $200/month. Also, you get a bonus of $40 for every student you sign off that passes a checkride on the first attempt. That averaged between $200 and $450 a month in bonuses for me. So I made $1,400-1,850 a month while I instructed there. Divide that by the 100 or so flight hours I got a month and you get $14-18.50/hr. It's definitely not great pay, but I've got several friends flight instructing at local FBO's that struggle to get 40-50 flight hours/month. If you do the math, 40-50 hours at $20-30/hr, which is pretty standard pay, only comes to $800-1,500/month. So I made significantly more than they did. They were jealous. Couple that with the fact that at ATP I got around 100 hours/month average and it was nearly ALL ME time. This certainly came at a cost. There were many days that I timed out with 8 hours of instruction and I worked 7 days a week and long days. But, I was glad to do it. Just like I went to ATP to finish quickly, I instructed there to build time quickly, and ME time at that. My pay wasn't just the cash they gave me at the end of the month, but also the flight time in really well maintained ME aircraft and the speed with which I could get it. I enjoyed teaching, but my career goal was to move on to a 121 job. My friends that went to the FBO's are just now applying for and meeting 121 minimums, while I've been flying 121 for over a year now.

Again, I don't think ATP is setting the world on fire with their pay, but a) it's not $6/hr, its a salary with bonuses. Ask any self-employed CFI at a local FBO that's had to sweat out a slow winter making $20 per flight hour how he'd like to be guaranteed $1,200 with bonuses with 100 hours a month of ME and many would jump at the chance. And b) what you make at ATP per hour varies in a HUGE way based on what base you're at. At ATL, where I was, you're gonna work your tail off, but you'll build time faster and get out more quickly. You could just as easily ask to go to somewhere like BWG and there will be some weeks when you only come in to work one or two days a week. It's possible there to be making quite a bit more per hour.

 

Good point STR8, I forgot to mention that you guys get bonuses when your students pass checkrides. But I still stand by my $6/hr assessment of your pay. You only broke down your pay by flight hour, saying you averaged 100 FLIGHT hours per month. What about time that wasn't flight time? My understanding was that you are required to work in the office when you aren't with students. You said that you regularly would FLY 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. By my math that is 56 hours/week. Assuming you did nothing but fly for every one of those hours (meaning your work day started when you got in the airplane and ended when you got out at the end of the day) and using your average of $1600/mo ($1200/mo salary + $400 in bonuses) then you were making $7.14/hr that week. Sorry I short changed you by saying it was $6/hr. Now, lets be realistic. If you were FLYING for 8 hours that day, I bet you did at least a little pre and post flight breifing, right? Lets say for every 2 hour lesson you did .5 pre and post that comes out to a 10 hour day. Do that for a week and you worked 70 hours. Divide that by your average of $400/wk and you come up with...$5.71/hr. So I guess the truth lies somewhere in between.

I know you don't actually get paid $6/hr. I arrived at that number by taking your salary ($1200/mo) and dividing it by a reasonable number of hours worked per week (50). I'm not talking straight flight time because all of us who instructed know that all your time with students is not just spent in the airplane. Allow me to recalculate with the bonuses factored in:
$1625/mo (the average of the numbers you provided) divided by 200 hours of work = $8.12. Wow...

So yes, it is sometimes nice to be salaried but when you calculate it out, it can also suck. My last CFI job paid $21.50/hr and I regularly billed 150 hours a month between flying (about 80hrs/mo), ground instruction and sim time. I'd take the flexibility over being "owned" by a salary any day. If I wanted to work my tail off I could make some real decent money. If I wanted to chill and take some time off, I could do that too and not have to worry about losing my job.

 

so, you like wal-mart? be careful with your answer. If you say "no", you are a hypocrite.