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-   -   Silver Airways LOA (2014) (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/80036-silver-airways-loa-2014-a.html)

CaptainCarl 02-23-2014 05:34 PM

Silver Airways LOA (2014)
 
The real vote begins March 3rd and ends March 13th, but I thought it might be interesting to see how this unofficial poll stacks up against the actual results.

Extra credit if you explain the reason why you voted the way you did.

Salukipilot4590 02-23-2014 05:40 PM

I'm not spending 60 something days away from home...without 3 hours per day credit and 70.5.

My people have already been slaves long enough.

NO

Chrisw 02-23-2014 05:48 PM

I voted and I left in January. So sue me. The reason I say no is for you guys. If you look at it this is a cost saving measure NOT a raise. To keep people from leaving like I did and to attract new talent, they need to come with something that is industry leading. I guarantee this new deal is a lower expense on payroll not higher. I feel there is more room here for you guys and gals. Silver had and could still have potential to be a great place to build experience and move on. The pay scales should be built this way. Nobody should be rewarded for working there for more than 10 years. Pay raises for a 15 yr CA is insanity. By being there, a sr ca cripples the company by both costing money that could be shared by the newer people and prevents the new guys from getting their PIC time and moving on. Encouraging an employee to do 5 yrs total and get the PIC quick benefits everyone. Low longevity cost and ability to attract new talent due to fast upgrade. I feel the pay should be MORE of a raise for newer people and 10+ years shouldn't get a thing. A lot of my friends there will probably like me a little less now but look at the bright side. I can't vote.

CaptainCarl 02-24-2014 04:36 PM

http://s6.postimg.org/rvdd038lt/Bump_Mario2.gif

Salukipilot4590 02-24-2014 05:04 PM

Cruz, I'mma smack the taste out yo mouf.

ctab5060X 02-24-2014 07:01 PM

I don't believe the language of the LOA is something any regional wants to pursue. After looking at it a long time, it not only appears that the reserves are getting thrown under the proverbial bus, but that the overall cost of the contract benefits management way more than it benefits the pilot group.

That and we were told countless times that we were not seeking concessions... and this LOA has plenty of concessions.

texaspilot76 02-25-2014 06:58 AM

What exactly is in this LOA?

CaptainCarl 02-25-2014 07:42 PM


Originally Posted by texaspilot76 (Post 1589285)
What exactly is in this LOA?

One of our guys wrote up an excellent compare/contrast, as follows:


A Compare / Contrast Perspective on the LOA
First off I want to express my gratitude to the entire union team at Silver for their time and effort in negotiating this LOA. This is a trying time in our industry and for the Silver family. I know that the entire Teamster’s team put in a tremendous amount of work and personal time to negotiate the finest possible LOA for the pilot group.
I would like to take this time to break down the LOA and do a brief synopsis and comparison to our current CBA. I encourage and look forward to any feedback or differing opinions on the subject. This LOA affects each and every one of us and potentially many others coming behind us!
·Ground Reposition:
o“The standard “15 min” reposition time”
oDefinite positive for the pilot group as a whole. Current contract does not require a minimum ground reposition time.

·Reserve Rules:
·“Minimum Daily Rate of Three (3) hours” – Removed
·Removed – 150% pay above 70.5 hours of credit while on Reserve
·“18 continuous reserve days”
·“Build-up lines”
oLosing the minimum day for reserve brings a couple of issues to the for-front. By not having a “min day” for each scheduled reserve day we lose a tremendous amount of credit at the start of the month (57-60hrs depending on the month). This combined with the loss of the 150% at greater than 70.5 hours of pay removes almost all soft pay with regards to reserve line holders. A counter to this would be the ability to pick up open time during your extended off-period, however this will result in fewer days off for the month. Another variable is not having a number of minimum days off for reserves. This could greatly affect your quality of life and time at home. Using the 2015 calendar here is an example of what I am referring to:
oExample: NO MIN DAYS OFF – The number of scheduled days off for a reserve in 2015 prior to any training events would be 149 days, an average of 12.4 days per month (149 / 12 = 12.42). For Captains you have to figure on 3 training events per year (Two 441’s and one ground school). With the new LOA reserves are not required to have a minimum number of days off. The company could choose to schedule all training on your extended periods of OFF time. As stated in the LOA these days are “Immovable”, however this does not mean by definition they are “Irremovable”. If the company did this Captains would drop down to an average of 11.3 days off per month. This results in no Gain or Loss in the average number of days off per year if the Captain is NEVER extended the 2 allowable days per month while on reserve. If the Captain is extended half of the time or 6 out of 12 months this would result in an average of 10.33 days off per month and is an average LOSS of days off per year.

§Summary:
·Min days off with no training scheduled on days off = 12.4
·Min days off with training scheduled on days off no ext.’s = 11.3
·Min days off with training scheduled on days off w/ 50% ext.’s = 10.33
oExample: OLD Contract – I start with 60hrs of credit at the beginning of the month. Let’s say I fly 10 out of the 20 days I am on reserve. This will leave me with 10 days of credit at 3hrs per day = 30 hrs. Let’s say I average 5hrs of pay for the remaining 10 days that I have worked, this would equal 50 hrs. This would total 80hrs of straight pay. I would then receive 9.5hrs at 150% equaling 4.75hrs of additional pay. This will total 84.75hrs of pay for the month.
§30hrs + 50hrs = 80hrs + 4.75hrs (9.5 / 2 = 4.75) = 84.75hrs while maintaining my 11 days off.
oExample: NEW Contract – I start the month with zero credit. During my 18 days of reserve I am “on duty” for 15 of those days and average 5hrs of credit per day. This would bring my credit to the minimum for the month of 75hrs with no additional pay. If I wanted to bring my credit to or above the 84.75 I would have been credited from the old contract I would now have to pick up open time on my days off taking me well below the 11 days we have now. If I pick up one 3 day trip at 12hrs of credit AND receive 150% pay I would make an additional 18hrs for the month.
§75 (15x5hrs) + 18hrs = 93hrs of pay while reducing my number of days off to 8
·Depending on your situation (i.e. you live in base, commute, senior reserve etc.) the 18 day consecutive schedule may be a significant positive or negative.
·The addition of build-up lines will benefit 1-2 reserves per base with the understanding that the company will work with the pilots and honor this agreement. There is nothing in the LOA that states the company MUST provide a build-up line when requested by the pilot.
·Hourly Pay:
o“5% CA and 10% FO hourly pay rate”
§Definite positive and move in the right direction. This brings Silvers hourly compensation closer to industry standard.
·Per Diem:
o“$0.05 per hour raise in per diem”
§Definite positive. Works out to a 2.9% increase in per diem rates, or 279.50 per year for somebody on 24-hour per-diem except for their minimum 11 days off a month.
·Deadheading:
o“100% pay for deadheads”
§This is a small positive, the significance is minimalized due to the current contract. Our current contract requires 100% deadhead pay after the first 5 cumulative hours of deadheading (flight or ground) in any bid period. This is only a maximum net gain of 2.5hrs per month or roughly $100-150.
·Vacation and PDO
oRemoved – Conversion of VAC to PER days.
o“VAC days can be sold back at 3.5hrs per day”
o“PER days are sold back at 8hrs per day at the end of each year”
o“up to 7 vacation days from the previous year can be retained and used the following year”
o“VAC days accrued outside of normal VAC accrual can be used during that year”
§The option to sell back vacation and the ability to retain vacation days for the following year is a positive along with the option to use VAC days accrued outside of the normal VAC accrual during that same year within the parameters of the “retained VAC day usage” rules. However, the “retained VAC day” availability and usage will not be seen for an extended period of time. The “retained VAC days” have to be from the previous year. Assuming you have bid for or already converted your VAC to PER for the 2014 calendar year, your ability to accrue “retained VAC days” would not begin until 2015. These days would not be usable until 2016.
·Example: You have two weeks of vacation next year (2015). You decide to hold on to 7 days of VAC so that you may use them as “retained” days in 2016. You will only have 7 VAC and 2 PER days for the 2015 calendar year.
oNote: If you are planning on staying at the company for an extended period of time this would be considered a net gain, however, if you are not planning on continuing employment through 2016 this would be a net loss.
·Retention Bonus
o$6,000 dollar retention bonus 12 Calendar months after the LOA is ratified.
§This is a definite positive if an individual plans on continuing employment through the 12 month waiting period.
·Training Compensation
oTraining and related travel will be compensated at 4hrs of pay per day.
oIf the pilot is required to travel and attend a simulator session on the same day then they will be compensated for 6hrs of pay
oNote: Per the company and union Silver has the intentions of moving all recurrent ground into base and all simulator training will occur in MIA. While the compensation for training and related travel is improved, if these changes in location occur the overall compensation will decrease do to the lack of need to travel. The current average training timetable is 13 days per year for a Captain (Two 441’s = 8 days / One recurrent ground = 5 days…generally). With the new locations you would see a loss of two days for ground school caused by no travel (ground school in base).
§Currently: 13 x 4 = 52hrs of pay per yr.
§New Locations: 11 x 4 = 44hrs of pay per yr.

flightmedic01 02-25-2014 08:05 PM

Silver Airways LOA (2014)
 
How on earth could 18 consecutive days of reserve EVER be considered a positive?!? That is ludicrous and should be viewed as a kick in the groin. C'mon guys, you can do better than this.

Cruz5350 02-25-2014 08:10 PM

Because guys think they can string together the time off and have roughly 3 weeks off. So it sounds good to them I guess?.... I don't get it but hey guess for some they think it's good.

ctab5060X 02-25-2014 09:27 PM


Originally Posted by Cruz5350 (Post 1589960)
Because guys think they can string together the time off and have roughly 3 weeks off. So it sounds good to them I guess?.... I don't get it but hey guess for some they think it's good.



Guess they didn't realize that stringing together all those days off leaves you with potentially 40 days on the road.


Brilliant!!

CaptainCarl 02-26-2014 10:04 AM


Originally Posted by ctab5060X (Post 1590011)
Guess they didn't realize that stringing together all those days off leaves you with potentially 38 days on the road.


Brilliant!!

Fixed it for ya ;)

Example: May 14-31 + June 1-18 + extended June 19-20 = 38 days.

ctab5060X 02-26-2014 10:29 AM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1590396)
Fixed it for ya ;)

Example: May 14-31 + June 1-18 + extended June 19-20 = 38 days.

You're forgetting commuting in the day prior and home the day after :)

CaptainCarl 02-26-2014 11:23 AM

Touché
 

Originally Posted by ctab5060X (Post 1590415)
You're forgetting commuting in the day prior and home the day after :)

http://media.giphy.com/media/6KAxgfdBLzzqM/giphy.gif

Unless, of course, said reserve pilot lives in base :cool:

ctab5060X 02-26-2014 01:19 PM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1590453)

Unless, of course, said reserve pilot lives in base :cool:

Thus the 'potentially' ;)




Back to the LOA... everyone I've talked to has been very much against it.

Just curious, with this being simply an LOA and we are not in any type of negotiations... if this LOA fails, what happens?

Slatsnflaps 02-26-2014 01:31 PM

So is the signing bonus now predicated on a full year of employment and not divvied up half at the end of training and half after a year?

Salukipilot4590 02-26-2014 04:16 PM

There is no signing bonus in this contract

ctab5060X 02-26-2014 04:47 PM


Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590 (Post 1590754)
There is no signing bonus in this contract

But it does contain a reference to a MOU that doesn't exist...

Salukipilot4590 02-26-2014 04:52 PM


Originally Posted by ctab5060X (Post 1590790)
But it does contain a reference to a MOU that doesn't exist...

How can LOA be real if MOU isn't real?

ctab5060X 02-26-2014 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590 (Post 1590793)
How can LOA be real if MOU isn't real?

I'm afraid the LOA is going to be very real, very soon.


Makes you wonder about the proofreading skills around here though...

Salukipilot4590 02-26-2014 05:22 PM


Originally Posted by ctab5060X (Post 1590803)
I'm afraid the LOA is going to be very real, very soon.


Makes you wonder about the proofreading skills around here though...

But who was phone?

CaptainCarl 03-02-2014 06:40 PM

Voting begins tomorrow. Anybody seen that addendum yet?

http://i.imgur.com/MXUg1Cq.gif

nkm06 03-02-2014 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1593776)
Voting begins tomorrow. Anybody seen that addendum yet?

http://i.imgur.com/MXUg1Cq.gif

That's racist!

ctab5060X 03-02-2014 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1593776)
Voting begins tomorrow. Anybody seen that addendum yet?

What addendum?


Last time I was presented with something incomplete to vote on, I made absolutely sure I voted NO!

Salukipilot4590 03-03-2014 06:39 AM

Need deets

Gangsta 03-03-2014 07:07 AM

If this LOA gets passed Victory Park will be able to wipe their hands clean of Silver and we will be on our own. Senior guys, THINK about that!

CaptainCarl 03-03-2014 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590 (Post 1594004)
Need deets

I was asking 'cause I haven't seen it either. Apparently it's coming later today. I'm hoping for the best…

Salukipilot4590 03-03-2014 09:47 AM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1594093)
I was asking 'cause I haven't seen it either. Apparently it's coming later today. I'm hoping for the best…

Me too my brotha, me too

ctab5060X 03-03-2014 11:43 AM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1594093)
I was asking 'cause I haven't seen it either. Apparently it's coming later today. I'm hoping for the best…

So we have a double secret addendum.

I'd like to see it as well. Nothing like going down to the last minute before the vote :)

ctab5060X 03-03-2014 02:46 PM

Looks like it will still be a NO Vote.

CaptainCarl 03-03-2014 06:30 PM


Originally Posted by ctab5060X (Post 1594415)
Looks like it will still be a NO Vote.

Now that the Addendum is out, what specifically makes this a no vote? And if you're not comfortable explaining your reasoning here, feel free to use the Union forum.

On the flip side of that, what makes this a yes for some?

pete2800 03-03-2014 06:51 PM

I'm not involved in this thread, but I just want to thank CaptainCarl and Salukipilot for making the regional section of this forum entertaining. I'm cracking up over here.

Well done, gents.

ctab5060X 03-03-2014 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1594589)
Now that the Addendum is out, what specifically makes this a no vote? And if you're not comfortable explaining your reasoning here, feel free to use the Union forum.

On the flip side of that, what makes this a yes for some?

1. No communication from the union that they were going to seek a last minute addendum to the LOA until the day the voting opens. All we were told is that they would pass on our concerns to management. I've been part of a union that didn't communicate effectively before... hint: it's not good.

2. 4 pages to "clarify" something they should have never screwed up in the first place. That, and the "clarification" is just going to lead to more confusion. It would have been easier just to give the reserves an extra day off each month (12) and not mess with this whole 18 day block that you can now modify after the bid award. Besides... where does it say that scheduling can't deny the days that you might want off as a reserve?

3. Still concessionary... plus the whole thing is pretty much a mess.

4. I have made comments and asked questions on the union board only to either be misled by those "in the know" or flat out not have questions answered at all. Sorry, but the union forum requires regular participation by all parties (including the ExCo) and until that happens, it will be a very ineffective place to answer questions or voice concerns.

nkm06 03-03-2014 07:31 PM


Originally Posted by CaptainCarl (Post 1594589)
Now that the Addendum is out, what specifically makes this a no vote? And if you're not comfortable explaining your reasoning here, feel free to use the Union forum.

On the flip side of that, what makes this a yes for some?

It's still a NO from me because this LOA is a mess. There are too many words & loopholes. They need to scratch this & start over!

CaptainCarl 03-04-2014 06:04 AM

Don't forget to tune into the conference call today. If you miss it, I'll post a recap on the Union forum.

Gangsta 03-04-2014 06:41 AM


Originally Posted by nkm06 (Post 1594629)
It's still a NO from me because this LOA is a mess. There are too many words & loopholes. They need to scratch this & start over!


I hate words also!

CaptainCarl 03-04-2014 10:16 AM

After re-reading the LOA and the Addendum, I can't find very many reasons not to vote in favor of this LOA. However, that being said, this vote is a personal choice for each of us and everyone should vote according to how it affects them personally. If it benefits you, vote yes. If not, vote no.

However, that said, I'm always open to more discussion and I won't cast my vote until March 14th.

flightmedic01 03-04-2014 10:25 AM

Silver Airways LOA (2014)
 
Is there still 18 days in a row if reserve?!?!

CaptainCarl 03-04-2014 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by flightmedic01 (Post 1594982)
Is there still 18 days in a row if reserve?!?!

Yes, that still stands but with some provisions:

1. Reserve pilots are entitled to require Scheduling to modify their reserve schedule to reflect 2 days off in a 7-day period (read: 5 on, 2 off) with exactly 11 days off per month. So a 30-day-month's schedule would look like this: 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 2 off, 4 on, 5 off (or 6 off if 31-day-month).

2. Reserve pilots (who don't opt for the option above) are guaranteed 1 day off in base in a 7-day period. So no 18 days of reserve out-of-base.

3. Days off are immovable. "The LOA’s “strike-through” of the contractual provisions which previously required that a modified reserve line contain at least eleven (11) days off was performed solely in recognition of the fact that reserve lines will, upon ratification of the LOA, always contain more than eleven (11) days off, with the exception of reserve lines modified under the provisions of paragraph 1.a.i. above (in which case such reserve pilot may receive exactly eleven (11) days off), unless the pilot consents to additional duty on days off, or as described in the LOA."

4. Training cannot be scheduled on days off without the pilot's consent.

BF (our Chief Negotiator) was correct in saying that there's some good money to be made by reserve pilots.

proprunnner 03-04-2014 01:51 PM

Well im thoroughly confused by all of this. So basically:

Option A: a reserve can request his scheduled 5 days on and 2 days off. When they live out of base, or
Option B: 18 schedule days , with 1 day off after the 7th day if you live in base.

However I still don't see how either are beneficial? Especially financially beneficial


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