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Year 1 Pay
Why do first year pilots make so little compared to year two and beyond? It's not just one airline...it's seemingly all. I get the concept of longevity increases, but it seems first year pay is inordinately low compared to year two and later.
Just curious why? |
Because we still show up for groundschool.
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I think the original idea was that it offsets the high cost of training a new hire for the company. As RJSCUM said above though as long as people keep showing up for training it's not going to change. As soon as an airline can't get any new hires to show up one of the first things they do is offer signing bonuses to help first year pay.
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Originally Posted by rcfd13
(Post 1617193)
I think the original idea was that it offsets the high cost of training a new hire for the company. As RJSCUM said above though as long as people keep showing up for training it's not going to change. As soon as an airline can't get any new hires to show up one of the first things they do is offer signing bonuses to help first year pay.
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Originally Posted by 35Right
(Post 1617187)
Why do first year pilots make so little compared to year two and beyond? It's not just one airline...it's seemingly all. I get the concept of longevity increases, but it seems first year pay is inordinately low compared to year two and later.
Just curious why? |
Originally Posted by rcfd13
(Post 1617193)
I think the original idea was that it offsets the high cost of training a new hire for the company. As RJSCUM said above though as long as people keep showing up for training it's not going to change. As soon as an airline can't get any new hires to show up one of the first things they do is offer signing bonuses to help first year pay.
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Its pure greed on the parts of the pilots already on the seniority list (but dont take that as ugly). The unions simply dont negotiate for people that arent on the property.. as long as pilots are showing up to ground school.. contract negotiators put the money where the pilots are.. for example, there is no reason for Jet Blue to negotiate 18 year Captain rates just yet.. they dont have any pilots there.
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The regionals are also one of the few sectors where FO pay is a much smaller fraction of Captain pay. Take a look at majors, legacy, charter or corporate jobs. FO's usually and should make 60% of what a Captain makes. A lot of first year regional Captain scales start at $65/hr so FO's should start at $39/hr. After a few years an $85/hr regional captain should be flying with a $51/hr FO.
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Originally Posted by Karma
(Post 1617326)
The regionals are also one of the few sectors where FO pay is a much smaller fraction of Captain pay. Take a look at majors, legacy, charter or corporate jobs. FO's usually and should make 60% of what a Captain makes. A lot of first year regional Captain scales start at $65/hr so FO's should start at $39/hr. After a few years an $85/hr regional captain should be flying with a $51/hr FO.
Most majors start new-hires at very low pay as well, compared to year 2 pay. It's not just the regionals. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 1617329)
Most majors start new-hires at very low pay as well, compared to year 2 pay. It's not just the regionals.
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Originally Posted by Karma
(Post 1617331)
I didn't word what I wrote that great but I wasn't really talking about first year pay. I was going off on a tangent about the whole pay scale. The regional pay scale is different from most legacy, major, corporate scales in that FO's aren't anywhere near 60% of captain pay on the whole scale.
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Originally Posted by cfii2007
(Post 1617259)
The airline invests quite a bit on each new hire; the same can be said for any multitude of industries. Regionals and LCC's issue type ratings (SIC) at the completion of training which range between $8000 - $15,000.
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Originally Posted by 35Right
(Post 1617187)
Why do first year pilots make so little compared to year two and beyond? It's not just one airline...it's seemingly all. I get the concept of longevity increases, but it seems first year pay is inordinately low compared to year two and later.
Just curious why? It make it much more difficult to jump between airlines. Most of the people I know are discouraged to change airline because they don't want to start at year 1 pay again (sub-livable wages)! |
The entire commuter pay scale is a joke in its execution. I'm glad more people are asking the question. Pay needs to come up at the bottom and down at the top. To ease the transition just have a track system, track one would be current pay scales track two would be the new hire pay scales. Much higher FO pay but capped CA pay.
The current airline pay structure, across the board, is very anti-union like. There is no "we're all in this together", it's more about the senior guys getting everything and those below them getting the shaft. |
Originally Posted by fosters
(Post 1617757)
The current airline pay structure, across the board, is very anti-union like. There is no "we're all in this together", it's more about the senior guys getting everything and those below them getting the shaft.
http://memegenerator.net/instance/48183999 |
Originally Posted by fosters
(Post 1617757)
The current airline pay structure, across the board, is very anti-union like. There is no "we're all in this together", it's more about the senior guys getting everything and those below them getting the shaft.
Long ago senior pilots negotiated away first year pay for something else in exchange. Maybe we all have better soft language because of it? |
Originally Posted by fosters
(Post 1617757)
The entire commuter pay scale is a joke in its execution. I'm glad more people are asking the question. Pay needs to come up at the bottom and down at the top. To ease the transition just have a track system, track one would be current pay scales track two would be the new hire pay scales. Much higher FO pay but capped CA pay.
The current airline pay structure, across the board, is very anti-union like. There is no "we're all in this together", it's more about the senior guys getting everything and those below them getting the shaft. Seriously? There are no pilots at any regional in this country whose pay "needs to come down"! There is no such thing as an overpaid regional airline pilot.... Please stop trying to sell this profession out, thanks. |
Cause alpa sucks. I think that phrase could answer most questions on these forums.
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Originally Posted by Paid2fly
(Post 1617829)
Seriously? There are no pilots at any regional in this country whose pay "needs to come down"! There is no such thing as an overpaid regional airline pilot.... Please stop trying to sell this profession out, thanks.
The latest contract voted on at RAH had senior CA's getting fairly large raises, something like $130/hr top out. At 60% pay (a BS differential IMO, should be 80% if not more) the FO's should be making roughly $70/hr. Yet the top out was the same, $45-ish an hour. Now, I would agree, if you can raise FO pay $30/hr without impacting CA pay go for it, but quite frankly that is unreasonable and doubtful any pilot group would get released for demands like that. Just not realistic. Not only that, but highly doubtful a negotiating committee run by CA's 90% of the time will ever vote for a pay schedule like that unless they aren't effected, ie the track system. The solution is to cap CA pay, bring it down, and raise FO pay, to make it more in line with what a professional should be getting paid. Also reduce the ridiculous 18 year longevity scale and bring it down to a 5 year scale. UPS was the only company in recent past that did this. Come contract time the CA's got minimal raises because the FO's were going to be FO's for a long time, and they knew that, so they gave the lions share of the gains to the FOs. It was admirable. |
Originally Posted by Seminole00
(Post 1617405)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfii2007 The airline invests quite a bit on each new hire; the same can be said for any multitude of industries. Regionals and LCC's issue type ratings (SIC) at the completion of training which range between $8000 - $15,000. They have to be PIC types now days. |
Originally Posted by alaskadrifter
(Post 1617781)
In the words of Archer, WORDING!
http://memegenerator.net/instance/48183999 Filler |
Originally Posted by fosters
(Post 1617873)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paid2fly Seriously? There are no pilots at any regional in this country whose pay "needs to come down"! There is no such thing as an overpaid regional airline pilot.... Please stop trying to sell this profession out, thanks. Now that you've vented let's look at an example. My commuter is around $100/hr for senior CA, but FO pay is capped at $45-ish an hour. The latest contract voted on at RAH had senior CA's getting fairly large raises, something like $130/hr top out. At 60% pay (a BS differential IMO, should be 80% if not more) the FO's should be making roughly $70/hr. Yet the top out was the same, $45-ish an hour. Now, I would agree, if you can raise FO pay $30/hr without impacting CA pay go for it, but quite frankly that is unreasonable and doubtful any pilot group would get released for demands like that. Just not realistic. Not only that, but highly doubtful a negotiating committee run by CA's 90% of the time will ever vote for a pay schedule like that unless they aren't effected, ie the track system. The solution is to cap CA pay, bring it down, and raise FO pay, to make it more in line with what a professional should be getting paid. Also reduce the ridiculous 18 year longevity scale and bring it down to a 5 year scale. UPS was the only company in recent past that did this. Come contract time the CA's got minimal raises because the FO's were going to be FO's for a long time, and they knew that, so they gave the lions share of the gains to the FOs. It was admirable. |
Originally Posted by willflyforcash
(Post 1617917)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fosters Now that you've vented let's look at an example. My commuter is around $100/hr for senior CA, but FO pay is capped at $45-ish an hour. The latest contract voted on at RAH had senior CA's getting fairly large raises, something like $130/hr top out. At 60% pay (a BS differential IMO, should be 80% if not more) the FO's should be making roughly $70/hr. Yet the top out was the same, $45-ish an hour. Now, I would agree, if you can raise FO pay $30/hr without impacting CA pay go for it, but quite frankly that is unreasonable and doubtful any pilot group would get released for demands like that. Just not realistic. Not only that, but highly doubtful a negotiating committee run by CA's 90% of the time will ever vote for a pay schedule like that unless they aren't effected, ie the track system. The solution is to cap CA pay, bring it down, and raise FO pay, to make it more in line with what a professional should be getting paid. Also reduce the ridiculous 18 year longevity scale and bring it down to a 5 year scale. UPS was the only company in recent past that did this. Come contract time the CA's got minimal raises because the FO's were going to be FO's for a long time, and they knew that, so they gave the lions share of the gains to the FOs. It was admirable. You're an idiot. |
Originally Posted by fosters
(Post 1617873)
Now that you've vented let's look at an example. My commuter is around $100/hr for senior CA, but FO pay is capped at $45-ish an hour.
The latest contract voted on at RAH had senior CA's getting fairly large raises, something like $130/hr top out. At 60% pay (a BS differential IMO, should be 80% if not more) the FO's should be making roughly $70/hr. Yet the top out was the same, $45-ish an hour. Now, I would agree, if you can raise FO pay $30/hr without impacting CA pay go for it, but quite frankly that is unreasonable and doubtful any pilot group would get released for demands like that. Just not realistic. Not only that, but highly doubtful a negotiating committee run by CA's 90% of the time will ever vote for a pay schedule like that unless they aren't effected, ie the track system. The solution is to cap CA pay, bring it down, and raise FO pay, to make it more in line with what a professional should be getting paid. Also reduce the ridiculous 18 year longevity scale and bring it down to a 5 year scale. UPS was the only company in recent past that did this. Come contract time the CA's got minimal raises because the FO's were going to be FO's for a long time, and they knew that, so they gave the lions share of the gains to the FOs. It was admirable. Once again, NO regional pilot in this country is overpaid period! You're saying that professional pilots with years of experience and many lives in their hands don't deserve to make a six figure salary, even at the top out at your regional? Your stated $100 an hour(at your regional) is actually low. There is plenty of room for pay for captains and fo's at all regionals to increase! Management has managed to cut pay and benefits continually for the last decade plus, and are now having a hard time finding suckers to work for the pathetic wages and benefits they have managed to shove down our throats. They have cut pay so much that the only direction that will allow them to continue to operate is for all of our pay to start rising again. Silver, Great Lakes, Republic, and Bendover are all having staffing issues, and until pay starts to rise those issues will only get worse. Pleas stop supporting managements greedy attempt to continue trying to get concessions from us(captain or f.o.)! |
I'm on track to gross around 36K(including perdiem) for the initial 12 month period since DOH at PSA. It's certainly not great by no means but not as bad as some make it out to be. Breaking guarantee while on reserve and spending very little time on reserve certainly has helped. I average about $650/month in perdiem which includes initial training(paid 24/7 perdiem). My friends that started when I did are averaging about the same or better. It's reasonable for a line holder to credit 90-100 plus hours a month, even for someone junior. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
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"As long as I still have resumes on my desk I'm paying pilots too much" - J.O.
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Originally Posted by gold
(Post 1632339)
I'm on track to gross around 36K(including perdiem) for the initial 12 month period since DOH at PSA. It's certainly not great by no means but not as bad as some make it out to be. Breaking guarantee while on reserve and spending very little time on reserve certainly has helped. I average about $650/month in perdiem which includes initial training(paid 24/7 perdiem). My friends that started when I did are averaging about the same or better. It's reasonable for a line holder to credit 90-100 plus hours a month, even for someone junior. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
$36k your first year IS good for the regional environment today. However, we should not settle OR get into the habit of saying "$36k isn't too bad"...we can't get complacent! |
Originally Posted by gold
(Post 1632339)
I'm on track to gross around 36K(including perdiem) for the initial 12 month period since DOH at PSA. It's certainly not great by no means but not as bad as some make it out to be. Breaking guarantee while on reserve and spending very little time on reserve certainly has helped. I average about $650/month in perdiem which includes initial training(paid 24/7 perdiem). My friends that started when I did are averaging about the same or better. It's reasonable for a line holder to credit 90-100 plus hours a month, even for someone junior. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
Also something about your per diem isn't adding up. If you're spending 400 hours per month away from base to make $650 per diem then you're flying some pretty terrible trips. The highest paying trips are the ones with really good credit:TAFB ratio. I get the most per diem when I'm junior and flying awful trips. |
Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
(Post 1632405)
I don't like justifying the low pay. $36k is still not sufficient and too low. We shouldn't have to credit 100 hours just to pay the bills. 100 hours is probably getting you to about 9-11 days off max unless you're getting a lot of "Soft pay" which would still mean you're working your butt off every single month. Not just that, but you eventually depend on that 100 hours a month and the second your airline needs to start cutting back, you get displaced, etc, and your 100 hours is in danger of going down to min guarantee then you're screwed.
$36k your first year IS good for the regional environment today. However, we should not settle OR get into the habit of saying "$36k isn't too bad"...we can't get complacent! |
Originally Posted by Paid2fly
(Post 1619097)
Once again, NO regional pilot in this country is overpaid period! You're saying that professional pilots with years of experience and many lives in their hands don't deserve to make a six figure salary, even at the top out at your regional? Your stated $100 an hour(at your regional) is actually low. There is plenty of room for pay for captains and fo's at all regionals to increase! Management has managed to cut pay and benefits continually for the last decade plus, and are now having a hard time finding suckers to work for the pathetic wages and benefits they have managed to shove down our throats. They have cut pay so much that the only direction that will allow them to continue to operate is for all of our pay to start rising again. Silver, Great Lakes, Republic, and Bendover are all having staffing issues, and until pay starts to rise those issues will only get worse.
Pleas stop supporting managements greedy attempt to continue trying to get concessions from us(captain or f.o.)! |
Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
(Post 1632405)
I don't like justifying the low pay. $36k is still not sufficient and too low. We shouldn't have to credit 100 hours just to pay the bills. 100 hours is probably getting you to about 9-11 days off max unless you're getting a lot of "Soft pay" which would still mean you're working your butt off every single month. Not just that, but you eventually depend on that 100 hours a month and the second your airline needs to start cutting back, you get displaced, etc, and your 100 hours is in danger of going down to min guarantee then you're screwed.
$36k your first year IS good for the regional environment today. However, we should not settle OR get into the habit of saying "$36k isn't too bad"...we can't get complacent! |
Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590
(Post 1632395)
"As long as I still have resumes on my desk I'm paying pilots too much" - J.O.
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Originally Posted by rcfd13
(Post 1632421)
All you guys seem to gung-ho about pointing out you're at PSA for some reason. It really doesn't matter what regional you go to if you're willing to work that much. You could make that much at any airline working that much since almost every regional starts around $24/hour. Hardly anyone has the time or energy to work that much their first year, and FAR 117 limits people who do want to work as much as possible.
Also something about your per diem isn't adding up. If you're spending 400 hours per month away from base to make $650 per diem then you're flying some pretty terrible trips. The highest paying trips are the ones with really good credit:TAFB ratio. I get the most per diem when I'm junior and flying awful trips. |
Originally Posted by gold
(Post 1632492)
The higher credit is a result of the contract
Originally Posted by gold
(Post 1632492)
Unproductive 4-days with 14-16 hours block can be turned into 24-28 hours credit with some adjustments.
You've made three posts now without actually saying a single thing. Give some specifics and paste relevant sections of your contract. Repeating "we have a great contract and my schedule rocks!" is nothing more that a bad recruiting tactic when you can't quote why it's great or what you're actually doing to achieve this. |
Originally Posted by gold
(Post 1632472)
I agree with what you said. Just to clarify my schedule; normally I can get a line with 90ish hours credit, 85ish hours block and 11-12 days off(junior line). After making adjustments(allowed per the contract) I will end up with about 70ish hours block, 105ish hours credit and 13-14 days off. Those numbers can be higher or lower depending on the adjustments made. Right now guys are getting lines within a month after completion of IOE. The company says we have 650+ pilots but in reality there are only about 450-500 "active" pilots.
Also, once a 1st year FO gets used to that 100 hour credit paycheck it make it tough to go back to min guarantee because the pay is just toooo low to begin with. Imagine if you were on reserve and not making over guarantee. You would be speaking with a different tone as $21k per year is NOT enough and NOT ok. Most 1st year FO's aren't able to credit 100 hours per month as they are stuck on reserve for at least that long. Your situation is on the rare side of the spectrum so don't forget that we can't lose sight of the entire picture. We can't justify $24 an hour. |
Originally Posted by AlaskaBound
(Post 1632505)
Your situation is on the rare side of the spectrum so don't forget that we can't lose sight of the entire picture. We can't justify $24 an hour.
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Originally Posted by rcfd13
(Post 1632509)
PSA already voted to make $24/hour for the next 10 years. They're going to spend the next 10 years coming up with plenty of excuses in their own minds for why they're right and everyone else is wrong. Nothing to see here.
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Originally Posted by rcfd13
(Post 1632504)
What part of the contract? From everything I've read your contract was much better before. Please enlighten me as to how your new contract is better.
What adjustments? Your statements aren't 'enlightening' anyone. They're vague management BS that they feed you during the recruiting process. "You can make 'adjustments'" "you 'can' make 36k first year!" "We have a great contract." You've made three posts now without actually saying a single thing. Give some specifics and paste relevant sections of your contract. Repeating "we have a great contract and my schedule rocks!" is nothing more that a bad recruiting tactic when you can't quote why it's great or what you're actually doing to achieve this. |
New to the 121 game...
This is probably some of the best info I've gotten out of APC yet...appreciate all the perspectives. One thing that I have noticed with any/all of these threads -- they all turn into a "b&%^h" session! Good stuff though. Oh yeah, from an outsider looking in...never settle for less money because it's very hard to get it back when management see's you can do just fine without it. From what I can tell ALL of you regional guys deserve better pay and benefits than you're getting so keep pushing for more as you have been! (might help me out if I go this route too :D)
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Originally Posted by gold
(Post 1632520)
If someone is genuinely interested in PSA and how the contracts works, they can PM and I would be more than happy to help. There's no point in getting into the specifics when folks like yourself have to ******* all over the place when PSA is mentioned.
If you're going to make statements like that back it up with facts. If you can't back it up with facts then don't post them. No new hire cares about how much money YOU make per year your how great YOUR schedule is. They care about what steps you took in order to make that amount of money or adjust your schedule so they can learn how to do it themselves. If you can't provide information about how you do these things then you're either a management tool or just flat out lying to potential new hires. I personally would be glad to help out new hires with bidding strategies or information on what does and does not work with PBS and trip trading. |
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