What about the military pilots and those with previous heavy time from defunct carriers. They deserve to start out on mainline type equipment as they have "paid their dues". The traditional regional newhire hasn't paid their dues and should start out in an RJ.

And what's wrong with that?

+1! Best post ever!!!

Hiring buddies and children of current pilots sure keeps those standards high doesn't it? Let's be honest, 95% of us are identical, 2.5% are chuck Yeager, and 2.5% shouldn't be in this career field. You're mistaking luck and timing for skill or lack thereof. The mainline vs regional pilot debate is just as dumb as the "my regional is better than your regional" debate. Time to get over yourself, we all do the exact same job.

I think a major contributing factor to the pilot training and pipeline issue is the lack of a defined career path for pilots. This was mentioned in last weeks testimony before congress. They compared it to how doctors move through their profession from training to attending.

I suspect that is what you will see as well, or maybe some slight variation on that theme. Once one does it the others will follow suit, they always do. The one thing I'm not sure about though is nearly every pilot contract has a stipulation that the airline cannot create an alter ego.

If the company was absorbed entirely, wouldn't you have to combine the two seniority lists? It would be easier to do what American did to TWA. Fold the company and take the assets. Pilots would be stapled to the bottom if they wish to apply.

No we don't.

We don't? Explain.

If you are good enough to fly a passenger at a regional there is no reason you shouldn't be good enough to do it at the mainline partner. Nothing in this industry is based on how "good" you are, otherwise upgrades would be based on skill (and they aren't). The ability to network and pass an interview say nothing about one's ability as a pilot. At this point it is whoever is better at the game. Or whoever lucks out, there are going to be some lucky regional groups in the next few years.

Yes we do. Your avatar should be 1/4th of a brain.

e
 

. .

Never say Never...

They may have 5000 apps, they may 15000 apps but remember, those are the same apps which everyone has....

If you still have a doubt, you may want to book mark this page to be viewed 5, 7, 10 yrs from today....

This is classic, and fascinating; I have no idea what is going to happen with the Ginormous Regional vs Mainline Goat Rodeo that is coming up, but I imagine it's going to be something someone else here already mentioned; some variation of ab-inito training and separate Regionals.

I also want to ad that being a "Major Airline Captain/FO" relies on more than just skill. Technically, if you can fly a RJ, can you fly a 737? Sure. But there is (somehow) still an image the Major Airline pilot carries. An image that the Regional Pilot does not. Part of it is the industry's fault, and part of it is the Regional Pilot group's.

I am not a Mainline pilot myself, but have close friends in both camps. My .02 cents is that the "higher" image attached to the Major pilots comes from a combination of factors, most unrelated to "skill." They (majors) have a better sense of unity; better than their regional brethren. They truly care about their image (mostly). When I hear Regional pals joke about how the Majors have comities to decide what brand of blazer is approved, I think, there is a reason for that, and it's too bad you don't understand it. You (mostly) still see Major crews walking together, blazers on, caps on, appearance neat and traditional. High and tights, trim moustaches if any facial hair. They seem more cognizant of the passengers, interact more with them. They also seem to understand that until they are behind that hotel door and out of uniform, they are "on camera." (Yes I see slob loners too).

(Now I am not lumping all Regionals or Majors into these groups, I am just saying that this is what I have observed)

Regional pilots seem flighty; no real sense of unity at the Regionals. Their unions are weaker, their pilot's disinterested and not unified. This is a temporary gig, why bother? They have a white shirt and epaulets and that's about it. They have "goofy" facial hair, gelled hairdos, and look, as folks older than us Millennials would say, like a punk a** kid. You often see them alone, not interacting with the passengers, or unaware of their surroundings. Talking or acting in a way that, again, anyone older than a Millennial, would say, makes them look "less than professional."

This is just an observation I have made. It is only my opinion, formed after 12 years in the industry. I have formed it as neither a Regional or Major pilot. I formed it after talking to current and retired Mainliners, current Regional pilots, and passengers. Take of it what you will. I don't mean it as a insult to anyone, just as a topic of discussion. Comment at will.

Honestly the hard part is just getting the interview. I'm doing everything I can to make that computer system think im the best applicant, past that I guess it's just a waiting game.

You make some good points here, but ultimately I think how a company treats its employees plays a major role here, and not just in aviation but in any industry. A company who values it's employees and generally treats them with respect and rewards them well, generally has a loyal workforce who is cognizant of the company's image. Employees willing to go above and beyond because they are proud to be working for said company, and are vested in it's success.
On the other hand, companies who abuse their workforce, and view them as numbers or liabilities, generally maintain a workforce of temporary minded workers, not caring about their company for the temporary job they see themselves in. Employees in this mindset do just enough to not get fired. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but it shouldn't be a big surprise that many regional pilots don't give a damn about the company they work for.

No we don't. I fly heavies all over the world. I do ocean crossings and operate to countries that you can barely understand the controllers. I fly in countries that use metric altimetry. I've been there, done that. You haven't.

Wait till United goes bankrupt again. There will go your pilot shortage.

You can convert feet to meters??? You must be a wizard. I can barely understand the guy that works clearance in LGA. Am a good enough now?

The last time I checked flying 1 leg per day in a heavy with free food for 150k+ per year was a little bit easier than flying 8 legs per day in a turboprop doing 18 minute quick turns, having to find your own food and making 20k/year. I guess the grass is always greener though right? Maybe one day us regional scum will find out how much harder your job truly is compared to ours.

Most mainline guys look at me in disbelief when I show them my trip sheet in the jumpseat. I've never met any mainline pilot who has tried to claim that they have the harder job.

If there ever are any true flow programs, which is debatable, they won't be designed to fill seats at majors. It will be there to fill seats at regionals who supply their cheap feed.

I'd rather have my military brethren find out how "hard" my job is than regional pilots.

Half of my regional new hire class as well as quite a few of the people I currently fly with at the regionals were former military. A lot of people I went to college with were former non-pilot military who were using their military benefits to pay for flight school. I guess we're all just crappy pilots if we didn't train with you though.

You are so clearly superior to everyone on this board by the looks of every single one of your incredibly arrogant posts yet what I cant figure out is why you lower yourself to post here?

He's trollin'

Probably he didn't get enough hugs as a kid.

I've been reading your blowhard statements all day, and I've tried to let them slide thinking that you're just one of the 2% that slipped through, but *** is wrong with you? There are good pilots that come from all segments of the industry. Just because you did it one way doesn't mean that everyone has to fall over you and mimic you.

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The double breast is strong with this one.

Oh please.... Sully or Al Haynes vs. Marvin.

I didn't realize FedEx pilots wore double-breasted jackets (hint: he's posing as a FedEx pilot.)

In reality, the odds that he's an actual FedEx pilot are slim to none.

It seems his too tight collar/tie has cut off the oxygen supply to his too tiny "membrain"!:eek:

And while you're at it don't forget to mention the Northwest crew that overflew MSP, or the Delta crew that "accidentally" landed on the taxiway. Or the crew that landed at the wrong airport, just to name a few that come to mind. There are errors that happen in the military to. Why is that, because we're human and not perfect. BTW, you just proved my point, you are one of the 2%

Major hiring depts are not impressed with the military or civilian versions of chuck yeager, or the cocky attitudes they bring with them.

They look for pilots that can sit in a cockpit for 12 hours at a time with the ability to play well with others, portray the airlines branded image, and operate a safe plane.

Bring the "iceman" tude to an interview and no amount of lunar landings will get u a job. Bring a humble, energetic, can-do attitude...u are in.

Background may get u an interview quicker, but it wont get u the job necessarily.

The idea I was proposing here was not to combine the seniority lists in the traditional sense but staple the entire pilot group to the bottom of the mainline list as is.
Why fold up a perfectly good and cost effective operation when they love the cheap feed so much?

Some pilots could choose to bid bigger equipment and better salaries when they can hold it.
Some could elect to stay on the rj. Perhaps you might even have a few bid down to the rj for a specific base, better qol etc.
Everyone would benefit from mainline seniority, longevity and benefits.
This absorbed or acquired regional would have stacks of applicants keeping the express/connection/shuttle operation well staffed.
The major can decide to control the hiring process as well.

Mainline pilots would control all flying, this could be a very powerful negotiating chip for the next round of talks.
Can any current or past mainline pilots weigh in on this issue?
General input from anybody else is welcome as well.

There are still some issues I do not have definitive solutions to:
- Salary at the absorbed carrier (low enough to appeal to the acquiring major, high enough to attract applicants).

- Union, pilot group and management political realities.
Are these real hurdles or could this program benefit enough parties that it might end up a reality...

I've too have done class 2 extended overwater operations, flown into countries where English is probably their 3rd or 4th language at best while dealing with some nasty terrain avoidance, hell, I had a "heavy" A300, crash on approach 45 min after I landed in one of these foreign countries, killing all 3 crew and two on the ground. Did all this in a CRJ.

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/9-224.jpg

You guys got to know when somebody's trollin. Don't bite on crap.

That is a very dangerous word in this industry.

Since you like red so much....

A better flow with their major partners to attract new hires is probably on the horizon. However, any form of merger/staple job would destroy ALPA. There is no chance of a staple happening, neither management or mainline pilots will allow that.

Please prove to me that what the regionals supply is actually "cheap feed." This is possibly the biggest false term that just keeps getting kicked around on this forum.

Just because regional pilots don't make much of a paycheck doesn't mean the operation is "cheap" for who is paying for all of it, when costs and revenue are the main things you use to determine what is "cheap" or not. Add in 400% jet fuel increase in 10 years, more senior pilot groups almost everywhere, and less revenue due to less seats on RJs to support it all, and I promise, on a per-passenger cost/revenue basis it is no where near the efficiency of 130-200 seat mainline aircraft. Even at $30-$40 a barrel for fuel the role of RJs was tenuous at best. I actually have no idea how they have been allowed to continue as long as they have. Because they are expensive and inefficient.


I think they will just let all the small, expensive RJs slowly go out of the system, and replace what they have to with the cheapest possible 76-90 seat RJ or send it to mainline. If they can't staff those large RJs, then maybe they will do something. But my gut says not likely. That is the fight that's on right now. How cheap and how long term can they make the large RJ contracts. So far they are 0 for 3.

Nor would the regional pilots if past history is a guide.