Neither did NW, UPS or CAL and I'm sure others that didnt have very high standards back in the day. Plus your premises that lifers are there because of their situation. I don't know any. My situation is nothing that you speak of. I just enjoy my 120k, 18 days off a month and never being an an A/C for more then three hours. Oh yeah, plus my four weeks vacation, 401K and my short drive to work.

My history, went to ERAU was a legacy intern, no DUI's that you speak of, so who are all these criminals you know that choose to stay at the regional level. You guys love to spread this spew because of your own short comings in life. A legacy job isn't what it used to be and if your at UAL its not gonna be what you have today when in about three years they go BK again.

I could careless about others getting a job anywhere. I do what's good for me and my family. Plus my wife makes more the a senior 74 captain so not everyone's situation is the same as your son!

Sorry, I couldn't help that last dig!

If not, why was this flying outsourced to begin with?
I am sure there could be other advantages as well but doesn't it usually come down to cost...

Major airlines, by keepimg thousands of apps on file from regional pilots, lower the cost of mainline salaries. That way they don't have to pattern bargain to get pilots in the door, i.e. Airways doesn't have to pay Delta rates to attract pilots.

Does this help or hurt a model in which the major airline acquires a regional. Would having an rj group (and it's many applicants hypothetically) camped out at the bottom of the seniority list change this dynamic?

Endeavor is already operating at the mainline, we have zero assets, so why would they change the model we have?

In anticipation of a possible future shortage at the regional level. Many endeavor pilots could leave to any number of majors, not only delta and endeavor could also struggle to hire from a shrinking pool coupled with the fact that regional pay is low across the board. Beyond getting people on property to these regionals, how do you keep them there?
Delta, and other majors could possibly benefit from a stable feed with many applicants and direct entry point to the respective major- this could minimize how many endeavor pilots, for example, go anywhere else but delta.

We'll said XJT Pilot, .......!,

Dog,
You miss the point that this would create a de facto B scale at the bottom of the list. Some other things to think about: how do you reconcile 401K contribution %? Sick time and vacation accrual, scheduling rules? All these have a cost associated with them to the company. If they have a seniority number, then they should be operating under the same contract, yes? By paying a regional pilot what a mainline pilot gets would negate any operating cost premium the regional pilot generates.

Right now, Delta and Endeavor are building a program for dealing with the shortage issue. They formed a group that intends to go around the FAA 1500 hour rule, and they meet for the first time this month to discuss strategy. They would not be going this route if they intended on a staple job for the 9E pilots.

I suggested an unrestricted flow between 9E and Delta, but flow candidates must have at least three letters of recommendation from current Delta pilots. This would be a better vetting process than the interview/SSP, and get pilots rushing in the door here at 9E. We'll see what happens.

All valid points. I don't think it would be an effortless move but if the costs justified it perhaps all the things you mentioned would be looked at.
Let me try and address some of these elements.

First- are there any current pay rates for the crj200/emb145 or crj 700/900 emb 170 in the majors?
If not they would not have to pay these pilots what they are paying the mainline pilots.
In an ideal world maybe this pay rate could be the middle of the road between the majors lowest paying aircraft and current regional pay. If the company was insistent on keeping the cost as low as possible they could leave the rates where they are (but risk lower new hire appeal). Even with current pay- I am sure plenty of applicants would take the low rj pay if it meant securing a mainline seniority number (Not saying this is positive necessarily).

The new pilots could be bound by the same contract and scheduling rules- these are interesting and challenging topics that require some creative thinking, but at least we are talking about them now...

Ok this at least the second time that I've seen you send this message out. I would like to know what you consider going around the FAA 1500 rule. There are already stipulations that can be met and reduce the time down to 1,000 hours but it also requires a bachelor's degree in aviation from an approved school. Delta and/or Pindeavor have no ability to change that.

That's the stated goal of the program, how they intend to do it, I don't know.

Quote: We have a subgroup that will develop a proposal for an alternate track to an R-ATP. The track would allow an
aspiring pilot to study and train for a Type Rating in a transport aircraft without having to acquire a thousand or
fifteen hundred hours of flight time. This sort of course will entail intense work directed at an airline job, but
should not require as many years to complete as the current tracks.

Where did you get that quote from? Thanks!

I'm not so sure this would solve the problem. If they offered a R-ATP tomorrow you wouldn't see an increase in people wanted to become pilots. You would just have the current crop of aspiring pilots get a job faster, long term you still have the same problem -- no one wants to become a pilot. And who would foot this bill for a R-ATP? The training foot-print would be much larger (and much much more expensive that it is now) for the FAA to allow something like this. Even Bedford admitted in his testimony to the Congress sub-committee that training would have to be increased in exchange for lowering the hours for an ATP.

The airlines need to come up with a clear and defined career path. Until they do people won't become pilots and banks are going to be stingy with money for flight training. The investment pays off long term if you know that getting hired at XY airline ensures a clear and defined path to a major airline job. That is it, that is the only card they have left to play. Everyone likes to use the doctor analogy, the first few years might be hard but there is a guaranteed career progression path, you don't get stuck as an intern for 10 years making 25K. The airlines can delay, fight Congress and government regulation but the only carrot left is a guaranteed job at a mainline partner (as in when you walk in the door that first day of class you get a mainline number, not a flow). The first one to offer this will be head and shoulders above the competition.

Sounds like a multi-crew license.

That's the biggest issue, who is going to give $200K to an aspiring pilot to complete a 1000 hour college degree/training program.

Membrain comes here to stroke his ego whenever the guys in the cargo playground kick sand in his face . He's the college senior that wears his high school letter jacket to high school football games.

ygtbfsm.......................

This has and always will be a question of money. It is currently worth it to have regional feed and to whipsaw those regionals. When costs change... Anything will be looked at.

Flew at a regional. Fly at a legacy. Same job.

membrain, if you were a military pilot, how did you get hired at Fedex at age 26? seems like an awful short commitment after college to me.

The MPL programs in other countries use very little actual flight time, and significant hours in simulators. And what they produce are hardly real, thinking pilots. They are trainees with passengers on board, which is what the 1500/1000 hour rule was created to eliminate.

A real-pilot training track could be developed as an in-house or airline controlled program to get pilots trained with far less than 1000 or 1500 hours. Every pilot I ever flew with as a new hire from ATP flight school was excellent and most had about 600-700 hours when they got into their first RJ job.

The armed forces create combat-ready pilots in 300-500 hours. So the same could happen to create airline-ready crews. It just depends on the quality of the training and the monitoring, and motivation of the trainees. Motivation may be a problem if they are working such an intense training program to get a $22,500 job, so they better figure out that problem too.

If the airlines propose to create their own pilots, they law would be written to allow it. They still want to minimize the costs, so that is what is likely being discussed now. How cheap can they make it and still get the government to sign off on it. My guess is simulators would not be allowed to exceed 50% of program hours. Much less simulator time as compared to the MPL model, where they use 75-80% simulator time. You need to fly actual airplanes to create actual pilots.

In the Congressional hearing where Bedford testified, he mentioned that Congress should consider a govt. guarantee of flight training loans. I think what they are proposing is creating some kind of airline training center, maybe partially govt. funded, that will make zero to hero airline pilots as they do in other countries. These pilots then often become 2nd officers. Of course, this works better on the longhaul flights and isn't practical on short-haul.

I propose Endeavor pilots take the same test that NWA pilots took to get hired at DAL. Of course they will respond by saying they took a test at NWA but was it the same exact test that DAL pilots took or the same test being given today? (No intent to slam, denigrate or insult any former NWA pilots.) Only an observation that not every pilot at DAL has gone through the same hiring process that some like to infer or imply.

I think I remember you MEMbrain, was your military call sign "manbiitch"?

Dishonorable discharge?:eek:

The Guard.

Those 600-700 hrs at ATP involve airline type flying not just sim training or SE instruction so the transition is easier.

However, airline training w/o the ability to go out and make mistakes and screw-ups in a forgiving aircraft and environment is wrong-headed and dangerous. The Air France crash over the So. Atlantic and Asiana crash prove this. The dirty secret is that Airbus and now Boeing are promoting airplanes that fly for the pilot, so a 300 hr wunderkind can handle it. The fact is the demand for air travel is outstripping the supply of QUALIFIED pilots. Asia is producing automaton "operators" not pilots. But the type of flying they do is a lot more regimented. ILS only approaches--in all weather. Autopilot on immediately after t/o and off right before landing.

This is the airline mgmt. wet dream. Low skill operators that rely on automation. Airbus execs have been quoted as saying their aircraft are designed so that a goat herder could easily learn to fly them. The AF and Asiana crashes have proven them wrong. This is where ALPA could get out in front and show the difference between a well trained, experienced pilot and an operator. Exposing this to the public would helpt the public understand why they should want a well trained pilot and that all airlines are not the same. But ALPA is a too political organization and doesn't want to step on toes.

What are you talking about? Regional pilots aren't good enough to fly with you but are good enough to fly your feed?? We all do the same job and in fact ours is way harder than your flying. The vast majority of "lifers" at my regional are great people that got stuck due to varying circumstances and the vast majority are great to be "stuck" with for a couple of days. Every place has its share of weirdos but don't blanket everyone in the same group.

I've been shocked at how bad of a pilot an F-15 pilot could be and I've been taught a thing or two by regional FO's. Your arrogance is a sign of weakness in your own flying ability. I was a captain at a regional for 9 years and now I fly to Europe and SA every week on the 757 and 767. It is the same job only easier.

Wrong answer on so many levels.

And MEMbrain is a UPS guy that got banned on a previous A300 screen name.

My SkyWest interview was way harder/longer more in depth than my Major interview. Maybe that's why Delta hardly interviews their flows.

Yea which levels?

I think some guys are off base about the regional pilots. Guys that are lifers there, are lifers because they have families, good quality of life, live in base, have money and time off. Not because they are crappy pilots. They don't want to commute to 2 days off a week and miss their kids grow up. Many could hand fly any approach better than some coast guard fun boy worried about metrics. Is the coast guard even military? Serious question.

You are kidding, right? Have you learned nothing in the last twenty years of airline history? The regionals WILL be the new majors, with crappy pay and benefits. This will happen as pilots and ALPA keep giving seats up in scope unless pilots wake up and stand up for better pay and no more scope loss.

I go out of my way to be sure my family doesn't fly regionals. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking its the same quality and experience standard as the majors because we all know its not.

Well it may not be, but it's designed to be that way. It's also a way to gain experience to go to that next level. We are not all born Chuck Yegars. Although it sounds like you were. Even he got better with experience. Btw, is delude even a word?

It's funny but, back before Al Gore invented the internet, I don't remember pilots at the majors having the same attitude about pilots at Ozark, Frontier, Bonanza, Southern, North Central, Allegheny, PSA, Trans Texas, Air California, etc.

I think 200k is a bit on the high side, that must be a private college. I researched public schools that were around 40k in fees plus a degree witch was another 40K. I've talked to grads who had their CFI their sophomore year instructed junior and senior year and graduated college with 1200 hours.

Inflation, tuition increases, and most of all, loan interest. If you borrow 80K, you ain't paying back 80K.