First you cannot dump a union. Nor the seniority list.
Look at Jet Blue, they just got a union because management forced them to.
If upper management thought differently then you wouldn't have a majority of problems we have today. Also the top end of pilots might have room to come down but remember a vast majority of new hires have zero jet time. Zero time at flight levels, some have zero actual instrument. I have flown with plenty of pilots that flew their first "Down to mins" at the airlines. First year is more like an apprentice. Not always, but more so than not.
Now if the airline management would put their employees first then their suppliers, your customers and shareholders will automatically be taken care of.
Problem solved.

 

Easy to say when you've already "made it".

I know literally hundreds of RJ pilots with thousands of hours of jet PIC, no skeletons in their closet, and a 4 year degree from a major university who have had their apps in for years and can't even get a call for an interview. Yet young pilots with little to no PIC are getting hired left and right because they know the right people. Rumor is the legacy carriers don't even want anyone with more than 1500 jet PIC.

You act like every pilot is entitled to a mainline job, it's our own fault if we don't take it. It's simply not like that. Many of us never got the opportinuty and will never get the opportunity through no fault of our own.

So why wouldn't we want something to show for our wasted career?

But easy for you to look down when you've already made it...

 

I notice the OP has twice ignored my question of which major airline he is a captain at...you know, a major airline where he made captain based on the seniority system.

Given that convenient omission and his trolling of the regional forum, one can only surmise he's a paid Ford & Harrison and/or RAA hack.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. I was going to ignore the troll, but you nailed it.

I am sick and $%&*&%$ tired of hearing big shot mainline pilots talk about how much more "vetted" they are or any other entitlement adjective they want to insert. Fact is, they were at the right place, at the right time, and knew the right people. I didn't. Period.

Everyone knows a crusty 767 (only) Captain like Lambourn couldn't pass training on an RJ if his life depended on it. His 1983 technology 767 with autoland and autothrottles perfectly suits his technical and flying skills. This could be said about most of the crusty mainline Captains who look down their nose at us and tell us to pay our dues. They don't get it and will never get it. They got theirs. F the rest of you. Typical pilot mentality.

 

Nothing is stopping managements from raising pay at the lower end of the longevity scale without decreasing pay at the top end. They can easily flatten the pay scales without taking anything off the top. But they don't want this. They want a cost-neutral realignment to entice starry-eyed kids to go to flight school. They are simply attempting to start a debate in the court of public opinion. The headlines are as follows: "Greedy airline captains preventing pay raises for their younger peers." That's the talking point.

Destroying the seniority system is an MBA's wet dream. Destroy seniority and you destroy unity. A guy who can "take his 767 type-rating over to airline A," and cut in line ahead of 5,000 other FO's isn't exactly exerting upwards pressure on wages. If pilots have no loyalty to an airline, they'll never be able to negotiate meaningful gains.

Again, you won't hear much talk of doing away with the seniority system at the successful carriers. Plenty of talk about it at the unsuccessful ones. If that's your thing, corporate aviation or overseas carriers await your exceptional skills, unimpeded by the constraints of forced mediocrity.

 

Sour grapes. Plenty of guys were hired at majors in the 2000's. My regional went out of business in 2005 and I was hired by an ACMI carrier (no connections) and a legacy 2 years later (2 connections.) You can't just wait for it to happen. Building hours and getting type-ratings is only half the game -- literally. The other half is networking and selling yourself at job fairs, volunteering ...

The legacies will be hiring record-setting numbers of pilots in the next ten years. Starting pay at Delta is in the $70-80K range. Game up, network and get ahead of the wave.

Or you could pontificate on a forum about the inequalities and injustices of this career and the quiet desperation that is the human condition.

 

I don't even understand what you mean by that statement. I'm not narrowing down my identity for you by telling you where I work. I ignored you because I figured you were just trolling. I started this discussion online here as a continuation of such discussions I've frequently had with my colleagues over the years. It's something I've thought through very carefully and feel strongly about. It's not really about me personally because it no longer really affects me but I refuse to be one of those types who sticks his head in the sand. My salary is currently in the high end of the industry but I see other professionals who make far more money and I think we could do better.

I do have many friends who are affected by this and I'd like to see the profession brought back from the brink of becoming a blue collar job. I'm not trying to make this personal.

You're absolutely right, they want to blame the "greedy captains" when the real problem is the seniority system that makes this all work. This is all working in management's favor so they want to keep the pilots distracted. I've said this before in this thread.

But here you are wrong. The seniority system is management's greatest friend. Clearly with it they have already destroyed unity....just look at the course of this discussion on the topic. Management needs this structured labor system to keep this whole system from unraveling...of course it is already beginning to unravel as a result of an under-supply of pilots.

There you go with this mythical sense of entitlement using phrases like "cut in front of the line" as if those "5,000 other FOs" have a right to that job. Clearly with this attitude you will never understand what working in a free market even means. You aren't supposed to be loyal to your employer, you are supposed to be loyal to your profession. The employer is just someone purchasing your time and expertise which you can sell to the highest bidder....except if you're locked into a seniority list.

This last part about...if you don't like it don't do it makes sense to someone in your position (or mine) but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Just because you're comfortable doesn't mean you have achieved the highest potential you can...you are measuring your success as relative to other pilots rather than on an absolute scale. The fact is even the top paid pilots in US carriers are paid a lot less than they were in the past and a lot less than they could be paid in a true free market system. Until you are free of the constraints the system has placed on you it's impossible to know...but it certainly cant' be worse.

And one more thing....how do you define a "successful carrier?" Is it one that hasn't gone out of business and placed all their pilots on the street? When you lose your job you are all equally unemployed. I know plenty of pilots who once flew for successful carriers...like TWA, Pan AM, Eastern, etc. (yes I'm old enough to remember).

 

9G:

I've worked within the seniority system and in the corporate-ladder system. I'll take the former hands down any day of the week. Even non-union carriers use it because it's the simplest way of determining who upgrades, who flies what aircraft ... when we are all, essentially, the same, known, safe commodity.

I sincerely wish you the best in your non-seniority path.

 

It's not B.S. and you're WAY off course. Even if those situations exist now, pilots have some protections of being fired for safety conscious reasons. Without that, they'd be toast. The system you talk of existed before the unions in the airmail days. Annual mortality rates were upwards of 50%.

Raw, unrestrained Capitalism has one goal and it's not any type of "balance" between profit and altruism. It's the realization of MAXIMUM profit. As such, corporations will push the envelope as far (and frequently farther) then what's proper and if there were no system of protection for pilots or limits to what they can do, safety would collapse.

The only point those CEO's had was under their hats. They just went to Congress and lied through their teeth. After seeing that, you'd think they'd suddenly develop an ethical compass ?

You're dreaming buddy.

 

Things used to be different, regional airlines used to operate under different rules, they used to be limited to short hops near the hub. This doesn't excuse a lower standard of safety, but the perception of that being where regional airlines "fit" is still around and prominent. Now regionals fall under the same operating rules, operate jets that go just as fast as the big ones, and operate legs that are exactly the same as the "big ones". The pilots are expected to be just as professional, have the same kind of uniforms, and the same responsibilities. Everything has changed, but the airlines are reaping the rewards of this perception still in place.

This isn't the fault of the union, it's the fault of the pilots. Pilots have to stand up, if some of them get fired or thrown in jail, then that's what it takes to make a change. The first people that ever stood up for worker's rights didn't have it easy, and I'm sure a fair amount were outright killed by their respective businesses that hired "enforcers" to get them back to work. This may sound extreme, but a union that can't strike and has no hand to play isn't really a union. Sure, there are benefits, but ALPA doesn't have the leverage to do the number one thing it exists for.