Yes, they said they purchased that right from ALPA.

As usual, it doesn't matter what the paint says, it matters what the check says. If you can't wrap your mind around that, you have serious problems.

Be sure to blame yourself as well. If we as pilots facilitate the outsourcing, then we too are to blame.

Is there not an "Operated by Endeavor Air" painted on the aircraft? Don't misunderstand me here. I WANT the RJs back at mainline. However, we didn't get to where we are today solely because of ALPA.

Well sure, but remember, prior to the scope tightening of the 90's, management could operate any size aircraft at the regionals, they just couldn't paint them in the mainline color scheme. They needed concessions from the union to do that, and the union is the ONLY one to blame for that, pay rates are another story.

APGA
 

Airline Pilots Guild of America | APGA


What if there were a regional industry-wide collaborated and agreed upon set minimum standards of compensation and work rules? What if every regional pilot had the opportunity to add input to these standards, and provide constant feedback?

An association to represent all pilots under the same banner. A unified front.

Membership is available to ALL pilots, and the only cost to join is affirming you will always vote in line with the minimum standards, you will promote the association to non-members, and you pledge to stay informed.

The Airline Pilots Guild of America is the first and only grassroots movement established to promote and secure industry-wide appropriate, safe, minimum compensation and work rule standards, to unify all airline pilots - especially at the regional level - under one banner, and to offer an outlet to effectively come together to attain these goals while offering career mobility protection in order to continue, and build upon, the Stop The Whipsaw movement.

Initiatives:

One List
At date-of-enactment, all pilots will be placed on one industry-wide "seniority list", based on DOH. This list will serve to unite all pilots of the FFD industry. Those pilot groups stigmatized by past behaviors will start over with a clean slate. Moving forward, we all need to be unified.

Regional-wide Private Internet Forum
Using verified, member-specific logins. To collaborate, come together, and become educated on other pilot group issues. To collectively combat against managements' whipsaw tactics.

Public Outreach
I know most of you think passengers will just buy the cheapest tickets and they don't care about pilot compensation. In front of their computers on kayak dot com that is probably true. But reading a full page ad in the USA Today pointing out regional airline pilot pay and working conditions, in the airport before boarding a RAH 175 whose 7 year FO makes less than a third year Eagle FO and to fly a mini 737, those passengers will start to take notice. Couple this with:

Political Advocacy
Chuck Schumer D-NY was instrumental in both the 1500hr rule, and the new part 117. You think they don't care about safety? These politicians and their families fly on regionals too. Representatives around the country are supporting bills to raise minimum wage. When they realize their first officer is making an annual salary near minimum wage levels, our association will offer guidance to solutions; if nothing else more awareness to the issues.

Media Inquiries
A hub for media interest to effectively educate themselves to our issues.
Voting Portal
A way to self-register a yes/no vote on a particular issue, TA, or LOA.
Prospective New-Hire Education and Mentorship
Providing the facts of the industry from an insider's perspective to new-hires of the FFD segment. Engagement with student pilots and aspiring airline pilots at its most organic level.

Career Mobility
Our seniority system handcuffs us into our current airlines, and starting over is not feasible for most of us. But seniority is too much a part of how we operate. I offer you Career Mobility Insurance. Similar to loss-of-employment insurance, you pay a very small premium, that if your carrier shuts down because concessions were refused, via management's whipsaw, Career Mobility insurance would cover a percentage of your pay for 6 months AND cover the disparity between your current pay and first year pay at another regional, should you choose to start over. I have already spoken to one insurance company expressing interest in this type of outside-the-box insurance policy.

This would effectively Stop The Whipsaw by eliminating the threat of shutting down your airline. Fearful YES voters will no longer have to worry about starting at first year pay if they get shut down. With every regional pilot group on board, instead of a race to the bottom, we will see a race to the top, as more pilot groups vote no to concessions.

Think Stop The Whipsaw, but as an official association. Instead of stickers and bracelets, think pins, lanyards, and badgebackers. Instead of tossing that ALPA lanyard in your closet because you feel misrepresented, you wear your new association's lanyard with pride. Pride for standing up for yourselves and your industry, representing TRUE unity, professionalism, and safety. A commitment to ourselves as highly technically skilled, highly trained, professional airline pilots. And a commitment to our passengers to provide a safe, professional service.

That is certainly incorrect at Delta. We had no restrictions on paint at that point. Management in fact often stressed they wanted that product to not be confused with the Delta product. Only later did they go with the new model of a seem less transportation system. At that point DALPA was able to get some restrictions and requirements on connection paint jobs. I just read the 86 and 91 contracts and there were zero restrictions on how aircraft were painted.

Great plan, really a bummer about the RLA. It amazes how many pilots don't seem to know it even exists.

Let me start with the basic fact that I am 55. I have been flying under 121 since age 24.

Look up the history of PanAm, Ransom Airlines and ALPA.

At one point there was a stake in the ground to do the right thing. But the military mafia did not want that.

And here we are.

Because they needed the permitted flying provisions in section one of the DALPA contract for the seamless operation, without that, under labor law, it can only be code share. There is more to the union, and what it provides you, than what is written in the contract.

Top lawyers vs. recent grads.
Specialist doctors vs. general practitioners
Top salesmen vs. average salesmen
Successful actors vs. struggling actors
College coaches vs. high school coaches
Wall Street wonders vs. Wall Street lackeys
Business owners vs. employees

Do I have to go on?

Yes you do, you still haven't named a comparison that requires everyone in that job to perform to the same standards.

That's absolutely not a fair comparison. If a top coach, doctor, salesman, etc. is dissatisfied with his employer or his employer goes under, that top performer with years of experience doesn't thave to start over at the competition at minimum wage. He may even get picked up with a pay increase.

Also...there is nothing in our system that requires or indicates that a senior captain at a major airline earning a six figure salary is any more competent or deserving than a regional first officer earning $22 hour who has a similar background and experience. Most likely though, that second guy will just quit aviation and all his experience is lost to some other endeavor.

IMO there is nothing wrong with paying a low time pilot intern level wages until he/she has proven experience and can land the plane consistently without making the captain break a sweat. The problem is that everyone being hired at any airline in our country is lumped into that same category regardless of experience.

And btw...other professions, doctors, lawyers, salesmen, coaches, etc. also have seniority in their workplace....it's just not the single driving factor that determines their pay and status within the company.

I'm guessing that most airline pilots have never worked seriously outside the airline industry and simply don't know any better.

Get rid of entitlement pay, entitlement transition and upgrades... Get rid of hiring only at entry level... It will fix this broken system and pay will begin to stabilize across the board and even go up at the high end.

You are expected to perform to a standard that brings the airplane home safely. One of the problems with our industry is that better pilots are not recognized and rewarded accordingly. Everyone is expected to perform to a high standard.

In general the bigger the hole created by an accident the more the pay. Like it or not, RJ flying is an entry level job. It doesn't matter that you do be same job in more demanding conditions. I used to fly unpressurized, hot, noisy, turbo props 8 legs a day without an autopilot too. Oh wait, you're flying a jet. Nevermind, my starting job sucked too.

The bottom line is you have not been able to move on beyond your entry level job. It may be because of your making or conditions beyond your control. It doesn't matter. Until you get a job flying something bigger your pay will always be on on the low end of the scale.

Well said.

You make a lot of good points. If somehow every passenger was informed about how little their pilots are making and how little experience some have before they boarded their flight, the CEOs of all the majors and ALPA (or any union for that matter) would have a PR nightmare on their hands. Not implying that only experienced and well paid, well rested pilots are good pilots, but it does help. And having a good contract fulfills a lot of these requirements even if your starting with a new carrier. Passengers are either ignorant or don't care because of the herd mentality as well as the excellent safety record of the industry.

None of this is true, pay was based off padding your pension, and regional flying was sold to plug the pension funding hole.

Ha ha ha rotflmao. D you know what that means?

Do you actually believe that flying as a captain on a large jet transport category aircraft with 50-74 seats is an "entry level job?"

Do you actually believe that a B737 or A320 first officer needs more experience to do his or her job effectively and safely than a regional jet captain does?

Do you actually believe that a veteran RJ pilot who hasn't landed a job at a major is obviously flawed in some way and deserving of less pay?

If that's true....there's your problem right there!

Of course it is. Many pilots first airline job is the right seat of an RJ. What planet are you from? I didn't say it should be. I said it is.

Of course not. Who said that? It just is what it is.

Of course not. Circumstances in last 10 years have made moving on tougher than usual but that hasn't stopped many from doing so. And it's not a question of FAIR. You don't get what's fair in life. You get what you negotiate or what someone else negotiated on your behalf. (Thank you ALPA volunteers and staff and the thousands that sacrificed before me.)

Entry level jobs have little to no responsibility. You have hundreds of lives in your hands as an RJ pilot, just as many as mainline. The ONLY reason bigger planes pay more, is because the union decided it that way. The Constiution and by laws should extend equal, and protected rights to all pilots, democracy doesn't work as we have seen.

The idea that airline pilot is an entry level job is ludicrous. I'm sure the passengers would be happy to be told that they are entrusting their lives to crews who are entry level. It used to be CFI was entry level, hauling freight was "time building" and airline pilot was a career. It amazes and saddens me how people let themselves actually be brainwashed by the union busting propaganda.

Circumstances in last 10 years have made moving on tougher than usual but that hasn't stopped many from doing so. And it's not a question of FAIR. You don't get what's fair in life. You get what you negotiate or what someone else negotiated on your behalf. (Thank you ALPA volunteers and staff and the thousands that sacrificed before me.)[/QUOTE]

Or if you work for a national airline and not one of the big 2 you may lose everything because " there's really nothing we can do for you little guys". Lee Moak could not have said it better. Life ain't fair so "get in line maggot"

The union's anti-DFR brainwashing propaganda is even worse.

First job flying an RJ will definitely not be an entry-level job for me. My entry level job is now: busting around in a Cessna 172 teaching someone how to keep the greasy down and shiny up. My next job will most likely be flying a turboprop, if interview prospects work out as hoped. My third (3) (III) (tres) job in aviation will be flying an RJ.

Not an entry level job.

I should have said entry level AIRLINE job. I stand corrected. And BTW you don't have hundreds of lives in your hands. You have 50-90. It's a tremendous responsibility but you don't add up the total passengers to get to hundreds. In fact RJ pilots probably carry more total passengers base on the number if flights they make. But you are forgetting, the size of the paycheck is dependent on the size of he hole. (For the most part)
See above. And CFI is still entry level. Probably the lowest level. Should it be? No, but there it is.

Agreed. I would think that an entry level job would be something attainable right after earning your commercial ticket. I have worked for years under 91 to be eligible for a 121 job at a regional, to consider it an entry level position is laughable. Besides, moving from 4 passengers to 50, and taking a sizeable pay cut is also ridiculous. Good thing I didn't become a pilot to get rich...

This may be "entry level" in the 121 world, but certainly not as a pilot.

What if I'm in ATL, and miss a hold short while a heavy is taking off?

Seriously, your perception of reality is the main part of the problem.

You pointed it out well in saying that a regional jet pilot carries as many if not more passengers over time.

The pay is not based on natural market forces or even on the aircraft size (as you are led to believe) but on an artificial negotiated system designed to be self destructive over time. The unions do not represent the pilots anymore, they have become a tool for big management to drive down employee costs.

At least as a flight instructor, a pilot can earn pay based on market demand rather than based on an artificial union closed door deal, otherwise they'd probably have to pay for the priveledge of teaching.

Also....I can earn over $200k at times flying an airliner and I must say that it requires less applied skill than when I flew regional turboprops.

Good point. PP in a C-172 has the same responsibility in that case. Some things we don't get paid for. Self preservation is one of them.

Your perception is warped. As for CFI pay, time will tell. It's very possible that CFI pay will decrease soon due to the fact that teaching may well be one of the only ways one can afford to get 1500 hours.

My perception of reality is that until there is a viable ab-initio program in the states, low time pilots will start their airline careers at airlines with small airplanes. Small airplanes that generate small profit will continue to pay small paychecks. That's reality.

This thread started with the notion that ALPA has sold younger, new airlines pilots down the river. I agree that ALPA national has not implemented a very effective scheme (on a macro level) to preserve pay and benefits for all their pilots. But taken in the context of the political environment and history of the last 20 years (actually since 1978), they have done the best they could. I'd like to see legislative change. I'd like to see the RLA amended. ALPA doesn't pursue that agenda because they're afraid of what they might get. Look at what happened with pt. 117. I'm certainly not less fatigued. Three legs days that approach nine hours are not an improvement if you ask me.

ALPA is far from perfect but I shudder to think what this profession would be like without it. (Collective bargaining that is).

Mike, what I'm trying to tell you is airplane size has nothing to do with anything. You have come to believe a common misconception in the industry. Delta loses money on some 777 flights, and makes bank on some regional flights. The most profitable plane overall is the 757, the airline is looking to shed the massive behemoths like the 747, because they are losers compared to smaller planes like the 777/787 etc.

Your pension at mainline used to be based on your last three years with the company. It was absolutely essential to focus the big bucks to the top of the seniority list, to maximize lifetime earnings. Since the pension is gone, the time value of money is what matters. This means that you need to save as much as possible, as early as possible, because pay rates at the end, no longer help.

Bigger pays more because of the pension, has nothing to do with anything else, nothing! Total scope recapture, with longevity based pay, is what fixes this industry, anyone who claims different is being self serving.

Well I guess our perspectives are different. I still have a pension.

Also, I've flown as an off the street captain for hire on short term contract basis. In that world size matters. And since the correlation of pay to aircraft size in the regular airline world is still very high, I'm going with the notion that size matters there as well. You may have a point that it shouldn't matter but that's not the world we live in.

You work at Alaska? Does the -900 pay more than the -400?

It did when it first came out but now all jets pay the same.

Again, you are confusing the artificially created market with natural market forces (which we don't have). The size of the airplane has nothing to do with it. Mesabah described it quite well I think.

Actually you missed the point of the OP altogether. This has nothing to do with low time or younger pilots getting low pay. The problem is that ALPA created an artificial and controlled sub economy based on seniority that drove down salaries across the board, including yours. The selling out occurred, but it's not the only damage that resulted. Locking you into a contract you can never leave by creating a monopoly system of entitlements for senior pilots ended up driving salaries down over time, not up....even at the high end, even for the experienced and highly skilled captains who thought they were getting ahead.

I've said before, that low time and low inexperience pilots shouldn't demand a high salary, that's not the issue we're discussing. You should stop confusing low time and low experience with a low seniority number or a lower GTOW. Ideally, all airlines should hire a share of low time pilots mixed in with a share of higher time pilots. Pilots have to start somewhere. Our current broken system of airlines canibalizing each other for co pilots is incredibly wasteful and inefficient, as well as unsafe. Add in the entitlement bidding and there goes our salaries. This is the result of APLA and the seniority system. No one will ever convince me that ALPA enhances safety in our industry.

You want to talk national seniority?

Unfortunately, seniority is a necessary evil. Promotion by any other means is a recipe for disaster. However, a national seniority list would be nice and 1978 probably would have been an opportune time to implement it. But, at the time, the "haves" were having none of it. They are all but gone now and the senior pilots left are not able or willing to sacrifice any more for the benefit of anyone but themselves. And who can blame them?

Perhaps now, with a large retirement bubble coming, would be a good time to try again. I don't know the legal ramifications of implementing a national list. I'm sure the hurdles are staggering. But I do think a paradigm shift is just over the horizon. Increased automation, ab initio, and a shortage of pilots with enough time to qualify as new hires, may force the issue. Will APLA (and the other unions) step up and help craft the future or will they fight change?

Anyway, just spit balling here. Good night.

I come from a background of economics, and I disagree with the notion that size doesn't matter--part of our higher pay for a larger plane is based on the notion that the equipment that generates the most revenue pays the most. Another way to look at it is to assume that the position of the most responsibility pays the most, and in this case responsibility is measured in the value of the equipment, cargo and lives. That's why even non-union nations pay more for larger equipment--flyDubai will never match Emirates because one flies 737's and one flies heavies.

The fact that some airlines have agreed to pay multiple airframes the same rate is simply a matter of convenience and expedience for both the company and the pilot group, as it saves money on training cycles because we have no incentive to chase certain upgrades, but we get the benefit of bidding what we want to fly based on our own personal criteria.

The same phenomenon occurs in nearly every profession, even sports: news anchors earn more than in-the-field reporters; quarterbacks get paid more than other players; the lead actor gets paid the most; senior partners in a law firm get the larger share of the profits; a VP will always get paid more than an entry-level manager. I could go on, but I think I've made the point.

Has seniority been the fault for a lot of other issues? Yes, and it would be folly to say otherwise. However, a national seniority list is dead in the water before it starts for three main reasons: senior pilots will never go along with it (and in some cases, neither would locally senior but nationally junior pilots [see America West/USAir]); it is a concept that would fail spectacularly without the support of ALL the pilot unions, and getting ALPA, SWAPA, APA, IPA, IBT, and USAPA to agree on something like this would be an exercise in futility; third, and most important, the airlines themselves would never go along with it. We sometimes forget that everything we have must be agreed to by two parties, not just demanded by one (bankruptcy not included).

Sticky worthy

I tried using similar logic but apparently my perspective is warped and I am subject to misconceptions. :rolleyes:

I had a CEO at Delta personally tell me he did not care if he paid a 777 CA 500 an hour because the aircraft generated the revenue to support the pay. He then added that if he paid that on the 777 we would demand 400 an hour for the 737 and the airframe could not support that wage.