Sounds like a line I would say to one of my workers, it is also a lie. The CBA as a whole has a value attached to it. The individual pay rates are decided by the union. The union voted in a blended rate at Alaska for the 737's, Mesaba had a blended rate too.

From form 4 data:
DALPA contract: $1.900 billion / ~11000 pilots = ~$173K per pilot
SWAPA contract: $1.300 billion / ~5500 pilots = ~$236K per pilot

You are paid based on what you negotiate collectively. You stated you wish SWAPA would do some heavy lifting for the industry, what was that based on?

Based on typical Delta chest thumping now that they're finally making what the SWA guys have been making since the early 2000s.

Cue tsquare to give me a "history lesson" about their amazing pay rates back when most of us at the regionals were learning algebra. Save it - I get it - you made a lot back then. Then it was mismanaged out of your hands. Finally, you've got the train back on the tracks. Kudos. Only problem is, you've talked down to the industry the whole time, without any reason for doing so - other than your inflated egos.

Heavy lifting? Is that was 4-8-3-3 is to you?

More form 4 data:
SWA revenue 2013 = $17.69 billion / fleet size = $29.63 million, revenue per plane
DAL revenue 2013 = $37.77 billion / fleet size = $50.83 million, revenue per plane

The numbers speak for themselves guys!

T doesn't need my help, but I can't let this slide. Historically southwest was a major drag on industry contracts. From their inception they paid less, worked more, had no retirement, but had fun doing it. Sorta like my commuter days(much more fun then the grown up airlines). Lots of the early employees gambled on a start up and got lucky with stock. Even as recent as the late 90s(really pre 9/11) they were somewhere between a good regional and a major. It wasn't until the prison rape of ch11 that they exceeded our contracts(it was not any heavy lifting by swapa, it was the swipe of a pen by a judge). LUV has always had a cost advantage, whether it be labor costs(inception to legacy ch11), then fuel hedges, etc and I would never count them out. Now they don't and things appear to be turning more legacy like and it will be interesting. Will they allow a b or c scale small jet operation on property or will they allow that flying to be outsourced to a partner? They need to find a way to grow their revenues for Wall street. From talking to relatives and friends there the LUV is not lost yet, but is getting stale.

I think you're forgetting about a few hundred RJs there...

Don't try and use critical thinking on Mesabah. He's got it all figured out.

If the regionals do the majority of domestic flying, by departures, why do we permit mainline pilots to occupy our jumpseats while they continue to get raises and profit in cooperation with management to keep costs low and not fight to reign in scope and brand for more than half of domestic pilots? I mean if a mainline guy gets denied off a Commutair flight he can go cry into a bag of money, right?

Brilliant!

I would consider your argument if you actually posted any data, but I'm the only one doing that apparently.

With the butthurt going on here, one would think that no endeavor pilot's were getting hired. Seems not to be the case.

Copied from another thread.

Few stats through the end of next month.

576 through July including 105 return to work guys

60/40 Civilian to Military
45% Endeavor
30% Compass
12% Expressjet

569 New Captains since C2012.

72 a month ongoing

Did Delta open it's doors with industry leading pay rates? How about 15 years in?

Doubtful that they outsource. The pilot group united as ever, since they haven't gotten a raise in 3 years amidst record profits. Can't imagine they'd sell out at this point.

As to your Wall Street comment, with the stock within .60 cents of an all time high and record profits, I think Wall Street is happy. They're one of 2 airlines that remain investment grade.

Outside of Atlanta (and maybe New York), Delta is just another mediocre domestic carrier.

Never said that. Was just dispelling the myth that swapa has been a leader in the industry. They have not had to deal with the rj plague because their mgmt. never asked for it. They had smart enough mgmt. to realize what a black hole the rj is/was. Don't think for a minute that the swa pilots wouldn't have bit off on a $50 hour raise pre 9/11 for some small lift outsourcing. As for 15 years in, what about 25(1998) or even 30(2003)? The only reason they are at the top was because of the legacies ch 11's. I am glad though they did not cave and sign away their raises post 9 /11 to stay competitive with the legacies in ch11. Good for them and us. As for the pilot group being united, I agree also. That being said, they will not raise the bar. They never have and never will. They do not like being the top and would much rather the rest of us pass them up so they can go on another growth spurt. They do much better being around 4 or 5 in the compensation competition.

Btw, are you at swa or just another disgruntled, I hate delta dci type?

No! I don't want to talk about national seniority! Why do you union entitlement apologists always bring that up? National seniority is just a different angle on the same disease.

No it's not necessary. But clearly you understand it's "evil." Why is it necessary? It cripples your career and locks you in to your low paying airline job giving you zero negotiating power. The negotiating power of the union is just an illusion.

No it wouldn't, it would suck even worse because you would take away all competition. You'd have to be a communist to believe this would be a good thing. Not a modern communist but an old school "workers paradise" type.

I don't think you are a communist...I think you, like most pilots, have just been immersed in this world so long you can't see past the problem and are caught up in the bs so deep you can't see daylight anymore.

People bring up comparisons to other professions to support a broken system (seniority) but the comparisons actually serve to prove exactly why the current system of entitlement labor is actually so different and unique compared to those other professions.

I've become ashamed of our industry and profession and what we've allowed it to become. Although I'm certain Lenin would be proud.

That has absolutely nothing to do with a free market system of supply and demand. You are describing a seniority system where senior pilots are rewarded with larger equipment to justify higher pay, not a system where the highest skilled or most qualified pilots are rewarded with the best jobs in an open and free market. To believe they are the same thing means you would have to confuse seniority with experience, ability and qualifications.

No you didn't make any point because you are describing people who accomplish higher pay through performance and competition in a free market, not people who achieved those levels by seniority alone.

A pro football player can't bid the quarterback slot based on time with the team alone. News anchors don't get their job based on seniority or longevity.

In fact these professionals are often hired from a competing company, network, or team and placed directly in those positions over colleagues who have worked longer and harder than they.

Exactly! So let's get rid of it altogether.

When I see a senior pilot hiding behind his seniority number I see a guy who is afraid to be compared on an open market, a guy who is afraid that his co pilot may be better than him or that RJ pilot who does 6 landings a day can outperform him in the sim. I see pilots who don't have the confidence to compete for a better job and pretend they are so good they no longer have to.

Personally I believe in a free and open market. Bring it on!

NineGturn, read "Flying the Line" if you want some arguments why a seniority system is preferable to a merit based system for promotion. Based on your name I guess you come from a military background. You probably think promotion should be merit based. You are completely wrong, in my opinion.

Pilots who carry passengers have NO business competing with each other. That kind of motivation doesn't belong in the back of the minds of someone making life or death decisions. The safety record of civilian flying is so much better than military flying for many reasons, one of which is the ability of civilian pilots to say NO. The last thing our industry needs is sycophant and ambitious pilots taking unnecessay risks to promote themselves. It's been tried and failed.

While seniority has it's faults, it ensures that pilots can make go or no go decisions without thinking it will distroy their careers. Fortunately it's here to stay. If you want to rave on about the union and their inability to raise the bar, you're going to have to find another way. Individual, merit based promotions, is never coming back in a big way.

Now for the million-dollar question: what's the performance metric? On-time or completion factor can't be used, since there are way too many variables out of the pilot's control, and encouraging people to cut corners to enhance performance will inevitably compromise safety, so that's a big no-go item. Making us do aerobatics in the sim? Maybe, but you better start incorporating aerobatic training in to PPL or CPL under part 61 or 141 somehow, since I'll bet most of us have never done any of that kind of flying. We all have to do essentially the same PC ride in the sim, a few approaches, stalls, steep turns, V1 cut, etc. so it's hard to distinguish yourself there. How do you determine who's the best when it comes to bigger planes, CA upgrades, etc. outside of seniority? I'm pretty sure ALPA went though that debate in the 30s when they formed, and settled on the seniority system. Is it perfect? Hell no! Is there anything better that would actually work in the real world? I can't think of anything. It certainly can be improved, most likely through some kind of "global" seniority list within each major union, ALPA, IBT mainly since I think all others are internal to their respective companies. If you are an ALPA member, your seniority started the day you got hired at an ALPA carrier, and as long as you never joined another pilot union, you keep accumulating seniority in ALPA as long as you are actively flying for an ALPA carrier, even if you are on furlough. If you leave for a non-ALPA carrier, for example, you start over at the bottom of that carrier's union's list, and if you go back to ALPA later, you start over at the bottom with ALPA, or at least you get no credit for the time you spent away. Perfect? No, I'll admit, but more in line with how seniority works with other unionized industries, electrical workers and such. At least as far as pay rates are concerned, it makes sense since you don't have to bite the bullet and go back to food-stamp first year pay every time you change airlines as long as you stay with ALPA carriers or IBT carriers exclusively.

They did. And another thing. What if the "best" pilots got to fly the biggest or fastest or whatever, does that mean the passenger public would know that when they fly a smaller plane, they are getting a lessor pilot? When I fly as a passenger I'm very happy to think there might be a roger ramjet up there sitting next to a more senior dufus. At least one of them is competent. In a merit based system the last two pilots would get paired together. That doesn't sound too great.

:)Your numbers don't make and form 4 data does not include the same items from airline to airline. In 2012 the average wage at Delta was 158 k a year. It was 157k at SW. The benefit package was 51k per pilot at Delta and 27k at SWA. Sine then delta wages are up 16% with SWA showing I think a 2 percent gain. Delta retirement funding also went to 15%. In 2013 SWA reported total pilot costs per hour at 809 on the 737-800. Delta was 972.
The pay rates at SWA came from the 2001 contracts at DAL and UAL. SW agreed to rates almost 20 percent below the standard while having much higher productivity. They have never led the industry or established new standards despite being consistently the most profitable and by far having the best financials.

The revenue per pilot tells the story:
SWA is $3.21 million per pilot
DAL is $2.8 million per pilot

The interesting thing with DAL is because of the staffing model, domestic has slightly higher revenue generation per pilot than international. ~$2.7 million for the widebody pilot, ~$2.9 million for the narrowbody.

I appreciate you have an opinion, and I respect that. But it's just an opinion. If a merit based system is good enough for every other profession out there, including fighter pilots, soldiers and police officers...then it's good enough for airline pilots.

If you are acting in an unprofessional manner in order to achieve promotion that behavior will be apparent and will get you canned before you move ahead anyway. Stop acting as if being an airline pilot is so difficult and noble.

And I don't believe it's ever been tried and failed. I've never seen that seniority promotes safety. The system forces airlines to dumb down standards to allow pilots to upgrade who otherwise aren't ready except for being next in line. Modern next gen airliners are designed to be idiot proof and it takes more and more effort to crash them.

That's nonsense...if you are operating in a free market system and you believe your employer is pressuring you to behave in an unprofessional manner, you can quit and go work for the competition in a similar position at similar pay without having to start at the bottom. In our current system you can't do that.

Besides, the seniority system is not a prerequisite for the protection of a union. I'm not against unions per se, I'm just against ALPA because they so adamantly back the seniority system, work on behalf of management more than for pilots, and feed the pilots a bunch of propaganda so they don't realize they are living in a communist microcosm while the rest of America is (mostly) free.

That makes no sense.

For one thing you are pretty much describing the system in place today.

Secondly You're assuming that the career progression would be the same as today where pilots would downgrade from jet captain to be a copilot on a larger plane (a wasteful phenomenon created by the seniority system in airlines).

Third, you are trying to apply the faulty logic of the seniority system in a non seniority environment. Why do you think everyone will want to fly the biggest and fastest planes? In a free market system there will be incentives to work as a captain in a smaller plane such as higher pay and shorter routes closer to home which will attract many senior pilots. I personally flew long haul and was bored out of my mind...I just liked the layovers but that got old too.

And in the end the most important issue here is that airline pilot salaries have been steadily declining at all levels while other professions have flourished in our economy. I'm sure you have a whole list of people you've enjoyed blaming but the reality is that we are working with a broken system that is designed to lower our wages and lock us into a job with almost no negotiating power by taking away our ability to walk to the competition.

Follow Albert Einstein's wisdom: If you keep trying the same thing over and over expecting different results....

It's not a million-dollar question....it's easy. It's not about competing against your colleagues. It's about achieving experience and it being recognized as you transition from one position to another either within your company or with a new company.

I can't understand why pilots find this concept so difficult to grasp. I'm certain it's just from a lack of experience outside the system they are currently imprisoned in...that and total denial.

OK, here's the facts. I flew for 4 airlines. At every single airline, ALPA was used as a stepping stone to management, or as personal gain. A union is only as strong as it's weakest link. At every airline, you have every single pilot running into the chief pilot's office and squealing. Watch out for the guys that hang at the chief pilot's office. They will slice your throat.

Don't blame ALPA. It's not their fault.

The other major part of the problem at REGIONALS is that everyone is afraid of getting a bad/secret/ backdoor word against them. That includes THE ALPA BOYS ON THE negotiating committee.

Everything you say, or do goes back to the chief pilot's office. PIC, SIC, whatever, it goes back to them. Few pilots keep anything out of pro standards, like they should.

I work in management now. I've seen it all.

Don't blame ALPA, you ARE your're own worst enemy.

9G,

You are new to this forum as of May. Out of curiosity, which major do you work for?

How would a merit based system be more fair?
How would you prevent cronyism?
I could see a problem with certain demographics(fighter, transports, academy, civilian, etc) gaining ground in flight ops management and skewing hiring, upgrades etc based on their background. Hell, at my company the flight ops mgmt. crowd already appears to do that.

http://9gag.com/gag/anYmvDB?ref=fbp

http://9gag.com/gag/anYmvDB?ref=fbp

First...what does "fair" have to do with anything? Do you think everything is fair? Are we living in a society of entitlements where everything should be fair?

Do you think it's fair that if you put 20 years into a job and they go under all the employees should have to give up their career or start at the bottom somewhere else?

Do you think it's fair that a pilot who is mediocre at best can advance through his career by just barely scraping by with his co pilots carrying his weight because he had a decent personality and managed to get hired at the right airline at the right time?

Besides, you just pointed out that nothing about the current system prevents cronyism anyway. I see no difference. The seniority system makes cronyism worse because a particular "demographic" can easily stack the deck in a seniority system and then that airline is stuck with it for the whole generation even if the "demographic" changes.

Personally...I don't see any of this as relevant to the discussion though.

My point is that pilots, like most professions, should be able to get a job and a position based on their experience.

If you are a Boeing captain somewhere, and you want to leave your job for whatever reason to work for another airline, you should have the right to apply for a position at that other airline at the same position and that airline should have the right to hire you. There are tons of valid reasons why someone may want to do this.

Our current system of seniority locks you into your job...it's worse than being in the military. Pilots in communist countries have more freedom.

What baffles me is why so many pilots think this is good for their career and their pay.

Again, where do you work? Reality is that the FAA sets the standard we must pass. It is up to the training/checking dept to enforce that standard. In my 18 years with my company, I flew with only 2-3 Capts that should not have been there. In your world, how would pay and benefits work? Each pilot on individual contracts based on what they negotiate? Outside of startups and some Asian airlines, how does the rest of the world work in aviation? IE: the KLMs, British airways, AF, Japan airlines, Quantas etc. How is hiring off the street pilots onto the list going to guarantee the best pilots? Just because someone has Boeing time doesn't mean they will be the best pilot/employee. What standard will they be held to? My guess is the current FAA standard?

NineGTurn:

You're obviously too exceptional an aviator to be shackled to the seniority system and forced to carry us inferior pilots who barely squeak by. You're superior skills would be better served in corporate aviation, where your rugged individualism would be unencumbered by the socialist fetters of seniority. That's where the true "company men" get ahead.

Bingo!!!!!

I haven't been a first officer in almost 20 years so I don't fly with too many captains any more. But I hear plenty of stories and I recall how it was back then.

As far as my skills, I'm not afraid to compete in an open market, you can be the judge. Although I never would expect exceptional flying skills to have much of role in a free market anyway...unless you've done something exception like ditch in a river somewhere and save a bunch of lives. Only credit for experience. Although I would like to see captain qualifications, training and testing standards for captains increased a bit, especially at the regionals.

I haven't flown for a regional airline in over 20 years but I recall it very well. I see what is happening today as a cancer spreading slowly to the top. I see my pay is lower than what I would have earned in my position in the past after adjusting for inflation. As is all of yours.

I used to blindly trust the system just like you. I have, however, felt shackled for a long time and have really only recently realized the incredible inefficiencies of our system and how it has been carefully crafted over time to work against us as pilots.
____________________________________

GogglesPisano doesn't even deserve a response because he posted almost the exact same stuff to me in a previous thread of similar topic and is only trolling. He clearly thinks he's smart by comparing my opinions to President Hoover's anti-socialist agenda...which I still take as a compliment...thank you G.

I do firmly believe that seniority systems are the worst kind of socialized labor and only serve to encourage mediocrity. And I'm not even a hard line conservative...I'm not against unions done right.

reference thread: 81579-these-ceos-may-have-point

Fair question....of course not! They would be paid the going rate for their seat and position, same as everyone else, with raises for longevity (seniority) ...but now that airline must compete for the pilot with other airlines and will be forced to increase or match pay based on a free and open market....good for pilots.

Right now the airlines only compete for new co pilots. Historically what an airline pays it's top captains today will have very little to do with what they will pay their new hires in the future after they've built twenty years of seniority...assuming the airline is still around.

Of course the current FAA standards...which I think are artificially low to allow 2500 hour jet captains at the regionals. Look at how check rides (esp at the regionals) have been dumbed down over the years. i.e. getting rid of circling approach requirements, etc.

If you are really interested read through my previous posts because I'm being very repetitive in this thread. I'm not alone in my perceptions.

This discussion isn't about making sure the airlines get the best possible pilots/employees, I don't see how that challenge would be any different anyway. That's management and the airline's problem. This discussion is about making sure pilots are allowed to compete on a level field and force their airline to match or raise pay with the threat of being able to get hired elsewhere for more money.

That last part is the main point of my argument but you keep adding all these other factors as if it's your job as a pilot to make sure your airline is properly staffed. Seniority is a tool of management, not a protection for pilots.

Where do you work?

Supreme Commander on the PMDG 747 Queen o' da Skies on Lockheed Martin's Prepar3d

The merit based system doesn't work also. I have seen it where politicking takes over and you get the people with the least leadership skills moving up. Why do you think many officers were shot in Vietnam and not always by the enemy? I have had my hands tied as a commander from your merit based system and my nephew had the same issues in law enforcement. I doubt your way will be any better and maybe worse. Utopia does not exist.

Well that's it then. The consensus is clearly that pilots are generally incapable of controlling their own careers and we should just roll over and do what we're told by union leaders and management (who now share the same beds).

Pilots deserve to have their pay continually lowered. We will never again see the salaries from 20-30 years ago because we aren't professionals anymore, we are just drones who live under a system of controls and entitlements that will never require us to excel beyond mediocrity.

Pilots are incapable of behaving in a professional and civil manner without our little safety nets and rules to protect us from each other. We can't trust other pilots in a fair and open market because we must always have someone to blame other than ourselves to explain why people with inferior skills and abilities have somehow managed to surpass us. After all, they must have broken the moral code to get ahead and make more money than us...it's not our fault. They knew someone, they kissed someone's rear, they cheated the system...what awful people they must be.

We should just go on through life feeling safe in our little communist cocoon comforted by the knowledge we have followed the rules and are therefore "good and moral" pilots.

Keep the blue side up...they said. Not me..Call me a rebel. I say keep the red side down.

Propose a solution. Most pilots are just complainers, blowing off steam. Ok, I get that, its an anonymous forum. Nearly all complain, but very few do anything to make it better, always someone else's problem. I want it all, except if I have to personally get involved then forget it. Not saying that's you or anyone in particular.

You can't hope to solve any regional pilot problems whatsoever if there is not ever any consensus from the group on anything. Not one item can be agreed to by the entire group of regional pilots, not one. There is no leadership from above either.

According to a recent forum poll, most airline pilots believe ALPA is not in a regional airline pilots best interest. Do you replace ALPA? Well that depends on whether you believe regional airlines are a stepping stone only or a place to make a career.

Fixing Pilot Pay at Regional Airlines | Airline Pilot Info

Thanks for your response.

You're right, we do come in here to blow off steam and I've been doing a lot of that lately. But I do have a solution...

My solution is to get people to see their world from a different perspective. To understand that pay has been dropping in our industry steadily and at all levels...especially at the top end. Everyone complains about the pay of regional pilots and especially regional FOs but I'm trying to point out that the real problem is across the board including the high end. Just look at what a 747 captain made thirty years ago compared with today.

My solution is to shout from the roof until people begin to notice. The reason I'm in the regional forums is because this must start now at the regionals and regional pilots and regional airlines are most likely to act first to fix this.

Stop backing the seniority system, stop backing ALPA if this is what they are pushing. Dump the union if we must (pay won't get any lower).

I find it ironic that a communist country like China will pay a contracted regional captain a quarter million dollars a year to fly an RJ using an open and free market system while an airline in a "free" country like the USA isn't even allowed to hire that pilot as a captain at any price and if they did the unions would demand that pilot start as a new co pilot earning $20K even if they can't fill the seats fast enough. Something there is really messed up.

My solution is all out rebellion. I'm really too far along in my career and maybe I don't have the power to change it on my own but maybe enough people begin to realize and act things will begin to change.

Maybe we need lawyers, maybe a class action discrimination lawsuit. There are ways to make change but it requires a consensus and understanding of what the problem really is.

That's my solution...pass it along.