Thanks ALPA for being a miserable failure
 

It's a good thing ALPO never perused a national seniority system for longevity pay. The whipsaw has only just begun. The writing has been on the wall for some time. Regionals with large numbers of pilots are being drawn down and tiny airlines are being built up in their place. Mainline management is hoping we all rush to Mesa, Compass and PSA for $23 when the rest of the big regionals fold.

If we were able to keep our longevity pay, it would be much less of an issue and a deterrent for the whipsaw. ALPO is firmly on their heels yet again. The single biggest thing ALPO could do to increase pay across the board is to untether us from any one airline seniority number. Plumbers, Electrician and construction unions all have longevity taken into account when they change jobs. Wake [edit] up ALPO you stupid thieving pieces of crap! It would even increase the ammount they collect for dues, and they are too stupid apparently to see it.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4149/5...029de93f24.jpg

Seriously, is it possible you are mad at the wrong people? Even if ALPA stood their ground, they would just whipsaw the alpa carriers against the non alpa carriers and the non alpa carriers against other non alpa carriers.

Says the guy seeking employment @ Allegiant. Pot meet Kettle :rolleyes:

Exactly. There's only one guy to blame, the man in the mirror, for taking a $23 an hour job at a regional when you can make $55 an hour other places.

There should be no $23 an jobs at airlines anyway.

I had an FO recently whom I was humbled by. He was an amazing pilot with an unfortunate career. He flew for several big named carriers who went under over the years. It was a real pleasure to fly with him. I was angered though at the fact someone with more experience in aviation than most of my other FO's have been alive, was making so little money. He is worth so much more. To be lumped in with a bunch of recent Riddle grads when it comes to pay is an insult to his experience.

Why so many of you thick headed morons are against longevity recognition is beyond me. When I explain to friends outside the industry how our pay system works, they think we are insane. They are right. So many of you buy into the "that's the way it's always been" mentality. People who think like that are the problem. Most of us will be in the position of starting over at some point. How about getting in line with other union labor pay practices already.

Seek away. Be sure to also get your app in with NAI :cool:

If u want to see a real failure come to airways and deal with usapa

Lead the charge rather than rant from the safety of your home/hotel room/crash pad. If you are unable to lead then you are no different than the rest. Complaining to a bunch of pilots who have probably somehow had it worse than you gets you nowhere.

I have brought it up to my reps. I have brought it up in a conference call. There is seemingly no will from ALPA to deviate from the status quo.

Not for a nanosecond have I ever implied I had anything worse than anybody. I do recognise that any of us could go from having a good job one day, to starting over at the bottom of a new company. When an experienced professional takes a new job an 99% of the rest of the job market, they don't end up being paid like an intern all over again. I guess you see things differently. Maybe you think we deserve less. Is that what you're saying?

I have no desire to be a leader in ALPA or any other union. I think pilot unions are a scam. They, just like a snake oil salesman, purport to be a solution for your problems. With our present seniority system and the pay scales ALPA helped negotiate, ALPA has been the problem. I feel we would be better served with no union at all. Since that isn't likely, the next best thing would be creating career portability. That would empower all of us and put pressure on the airlines to compete for our services.

GlobeTrekker, I think you are anger is partially misguided. Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of ALPA (I'm ex-Comair). And, in the interest of full disclosure, before coming to my current major, I took a job at another regional in order to stay current. I wasn't there long, but I was there, so one can make the valid statement that I helped perpetuate the problem.

That said, there are two parts to the problem. The unions are one, and your anger and frustration there are justified. The other parts are the companies. Even if ALPA/IPA/APA/IBT/USAPA/SWAPA or any others agreed today to go along with your plan, you have to get the airlines to do it. Given that they already know that pilots are willing--I would even dare say able, based on past behavior--airlines will have no incentive to follow your concept until even the majors can't find pilots, and that day is years away.

In the meantime, even at the regional level, while the pilot shortage is real, there is still a level of pilot re-cycling taking place. Comair guys are still going to other regionals, and pilots from Eagle will start over at regionals for a while as well. It isn't until regional pilots refuse to jump back on the low-pay treadmill that the issue is going to get any traction at all.

The problem goes even further than that. Are pilots already at these airlines willing to trade some of their gains for other pilots from other airlines to be paid more? I'd wager the answer is no. No one else takes care of me except me and it is silly to believe anyone else is going to me before their ability to pay the bills. Love the concept though but only if it doesn't come at my expense.

Nothing has to come at your expense. There would have your seniority number for years of longevity and then the seniority number for your company. A furloughed Comair captain would go to Compass for example at whatever year longevity he left Comair at. He would still be at the bottom of the Compass seniority list as far as bidding goes.

What I am proposing isn't something new or radical. It already exists in other unionized industries. Why so many allow themselves to believe we must start over (longevity pay wise) every time we switch jobs is insanity. Your experience should matter. So many of you seem to have Stockholm syndrome. Management has you sold on the idea you're worthless.

Why does everyone think we have unions in the airline business? We have no unions. What we have are a weak imitation of a union that advocates on Capital Hill in the interests of its mainline members and consults it's Regional members with just enough guidance to hang themselves.

Most of what we have was voted in by the people you see in your own crew room every day or the greedy self serving pricks that came and left years before pulling the rope up behind them.

Example...show of hands...how many people here would vote in a 10% pay cut to boost 1st year FO pay? You would vote no. Then what would you do if ALPA comes in and says, "we are gonna sign off on that because it's the right thing to do". I bet you all would swiftly get rid of ALPA then.

You have a incredibly poor understanding of the RLA.

Yep, a national union, with seniority list is not allowed by the RLA. So why does ALPA support the RLA, the closed shop provision?

They don't support the RLA. They simply don't have a prayer of getting it changed without a hundredfold increase in PAC money. They did float a trial ballon and attempted to have FedEx removed from the RLA. Never even got out of committee let alone to either floor for a vote. Fred Smith and the ATA pulled out all the stops including canceling every Boeing aircraft he had on order if it were passed.

OP can't spell miserable, calls other people morons.

I point that out, my post gets deleted.


Sure, that makes sense. :rolleyes:






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We all need good spelling and grammar. The real problem is that the Kool-Aid(tm) is tasting a little bitter because of the poison.

People have paid for a service and not gotten their return for investment. This tends to make rational people angry.

Around 8 of his posts have been deleted with an infraction doled out. Your post was deleted only to unspool the angry back and forth. It was nothing personal.

ALPA did their best to save the Envoy pilot's from themselves. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

PAC money, is that why there is an almost $400,000 pay difference between the highest paid, and lowest paid ALPA pilot? What other industry has that kind of disparity between workers who do the exact same job?

Sure, I get the anti-ALPA bias of APC "management". Silly me, I had confidence that truth would triumph over emotion. Let the rants continue, fairness be damned.


I know I can count on Moderators to correct my spelling errors. :rolleyes:







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One of the moderators is an ALPA rep, and at least 2 others including myself stay quite involved. So yeah... a little misguided you are.

Then you won't mind telling me how my deleted post violated the Terms of Service.






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Eh, I've had posts deleted because I was talking about a different airline than the thread titled airline.....It of course had nothing to do with the fact that the mod in question worked for said airline.:rolleyes:

You won't get a good answer as the mods are omnipotent here. Which is their right I suppose. If we don't like it we can take our opinions elsewhere.

Why can't you use your powers for good instead of evil? :D

Seriously, be the change you want to see.

Had you violated the TOS, you would have gotten an infraction or a reminder. Posts associated with TOS violating posts are removed to try to get things back on track. Yours was the latter.

I violated no rule.

You deleted my post.

Got it.



The OP, disparaging ALPA, had his post edited to make him look more intelligent and informed than he really is.


Got it.




No bias.

None.

Zero.

Nada.






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Thanks ALPA for being a miserable failure
 

Ok everybody knock it off and start over. All this hubbub and I forget what the thread is all about.

I'm on the bus home. What's more alarming than another APC thread going sideways is the guy sitting next to me. He's creepy looking and probably has less than honorable intentions!

Doctors, lawyers, managements, Ceo's ect..

None of those examples are people who would be on a seniority list, try again.

Well, at least some get to see the true extent of their dues here, an angry old man barking at the moon times however many HQ can afford. Thanks for that display.

Enter Content

What airline would hire an entry level 1500 h pilot for $55/hour?
I will apply immediately!

First off, ALPA doesn't own company seniority lists. The companies do. So how will ALPA merge seniority lists that ALPA doesn't control?

Second, don't blame only ALPA for the pay rates at the regionals when pilot groups like GoJet, RAH, etc are represented by Teamsters and have done near jack squat to help raise the bar.

It's not as simple as just creating one list.

Spot on, johnso. This is all just an emotional outburst over things he can't control and doesn't even come close to understanding.

Oh, how sweet. Between this and 80ktsClamp telling me to put my ovaries away, I'm not sure which of you loves me more. ;)






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Yeah cuz that's just a lot of money right there.
Technical degrees fresh out of college starting 60 and above with virtually no skills and NOT saddled with 100K plus debt.
Oh the Humanity!

I don't blame ALPA for my pay rates, I blame ALPA for the paint job on the side of my aircraft. Why does it say Delta, and not Endeavor?

Have you asked your management?