Please also explain the condition of the Soviet-era planes in Russia that will surely show up here if FoC becomes standard practice.

Quit back-peddling and present your case. Don't be one of those guys who changes their tactics to personal attacks when they can't support their argument.

You just made that up. It did not happen like that.

You have no skin the game, why would I waste my time on you.

As for "my case" (whatever that means) everything I've mentioned is easily available for those who want to read a little history. As for a personal attack, are you not an ERAU grad who works in IT and is not a working airline pilot or not?

I think both sides make valid points here but its pretty ironic to see a bunch of mainline guys railing against this but be perfectly ok with the much bigger scam known as the regional whipsaw. I certainly don't supprt what NAI is trying to accomplish, but I can certainly can understand someone's reason for supporting it.
NAI must be defeated, and when it is we need to focus our energy on defeating the regional whipsaw. The real downward pressure on wages are the regional airlines masquerading as Delta Connection, United Express, and American Eagle, who now do approximately 50% of the domestic flying.
We are not entitled to mainline jobs, we've just been doing the job flying delta passengers in the same weather same airspace same airports, same same same for FAR LESS PAY. But dbags like MEmbrain have the nerve to say things like it has to be earned. We have earned it, we prove it everyday by flying YOUR passengers. Tell that to the 20 year Comair guy whose been forced to start over at the bottom of some other ****ball regional. We all want to earn our jobs at mainline, but stop telling guys who've been in the regionals for a decade or more after being whipsawed they've got to earn it. We get it. We need to pass an interview like everyone else, but stop acting like we don't do the exact same job.
I think congress should be addressing the issue of subcontractors impersonating real airlines. Should be illegal. If Delta sells tickets on a Delta flight, it should be flown on a Delta plane by Delta pilots period. Take the flying back!

Since 2007, I own a small IT company with employees.

Of course not just like that, I used a little creative licensing. However it was agreed that there would be a B scale that benefited those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom.

I think there is 2 ways to look at this.

1.) On one hand it could be argued this B scale is a dues paying investment. If you are fortunate enough to make it out of the regionals, your reward awaits you. But until that time, you are not a member of the club yet. If you languish too long at the regional, management wants you out on the street after a period of time because you cost too much.

2.) On the other hand, it could be argued that regional airlines should stand alone, with better pay, benefit, and qol at the expense of those at the top, a flattening of pay scales to give those at the bottom a little more to bring them out of poverty. This model gives a future to lifers.

I think if you believe in ALPA, method 1 suites you. But if you believe in the latter, maybe a separate regional airline union is the way to go.

I love how people say a major job is earned, implying that a regional job is not. As if I could take a homeless guy off the street, and put him in a regional jet, while NASA astronauts need to be screened for undesirables if you put one more seat on an RJ.

The argument is really about pay; Major airline pilots want the stuff that outsourcing provides them.

Let me get this straight.

The OP started flying post 9/11 and probably only had to have 250-500 hours to get a regional job. Didn't have to have the 1200/200 or 1500/300 that was required prior to 9/11 or live through that stagnation and now your mad that you haven't made more money or made it to the majors?

Why don't you just admit you failed to investigate the industry and what you could expect instead of blaming others or looking for a quick fix.

It’s not horsesh*t, a friend of mine loaded barges and ships for a top oil company, he always talked about the degenerates that worked those decks, constantly smelled like booze, stumbling around drunk, they would never have anybody that spoke English. They showed up with ships that were so rusty he could see through them. He refused to load several times due to the shape the equipment was in. The flag of convenience all started because of American shipping punitive liability cost, so the remedy is now if the ship leaks just don’t report it, IF it washes up on shore they’d never know who to blame. If they do catch us, O well surrender the ship and start over, good thing it’s registered in Liberia, less liability.



How would you feel about flying equipment so terrible that the FBO refused to fuel you, and you had to cancel the flight? Then the FBO would make the FSDO show up to do an airworthiness inspection so they could load you? Talk to the Coast Guard happens all the time with shipping. Have you ever flown a plane that was registered in Liberia and maintained under their law? What about a Liberian approved repair to the wing spar?

What I'm trying to get you to lay out is an example of how you see this would unfold in the US Airlines. Are you saying that because of the competition that a US based legacy carrier would be forced out of business and a foreign carrier would move in with foreign pilots? Or are you saying the big legacy carrier continues to exist but has no US based pilots?

I'm asking you and a few others who have commented to explain it in a scenario but all I get is comments like "lookup maritime" or "review past history" or "I don't have the time to explain it" kinds of answers.

Can you please explain how BK protection is part of that "free market"?

The problem with NAI is they are trying to bring the Southwest effect to the international flying scene. We all know that SWA has had a very disruptive effect on the US airline industry.

His number he originally gave was "total compensation", which means he was adding in health care and retirement etc.

Where has any one of the mainline pilots that have posted on here showed support of the regional scheme? Point out specific posts, please. (MEMbrain is a troll that is on very thin ice, FWIW.)

A lot of the pain in the regional world right now is being caused by DL pilots taking regional flying back while mgmt is trying to protect their cost model to keep it viable just a little bit longer. It's not a fast process, nor is it without breaking some eggs. Guys really screwed the pooch years ago when they let the camel in the tent with the outsourcing model, and it will take many years to fix as well.

So why would we even begin to think that letting this even bigger camel in is a good idea and not without dire consequences?

Its because their beating you to the punch. The business model, or labor model is moot. No one thinks FoC means that company wont make money. A FoC means 3rd world safety standards in this country with no control. That above all is the larger risk.

What would happen is NAI or some other company would run the most traveled routes. Abuse the design limits ie overload, remove safety equipment, have 1 flight attendant, add seats, run to many cycles on engine and airframe, paint over cracks, feed everyone MREs so they become constipated, remove the bathrooms, add seats, allow seat sharing, remove seats for standing fares, use counterfeit parts, haul hazardous cargo labeled non-hazardous, get behind on paying landing fees and PFC's, force FAA and airports to sue to collect, force flight crew to work 18 days and pad logs, issue no-doze to pilots, not waste training time on pilots for emergencys that wont happen, evade basic corporate taxes, offer IPO and dump shares, parade topless FAs in business class, offer prostitution in 1st class w/ cocaine.

Announce that big greedy unions wanting $250,000 a year are the reason that American company's failed, and reference rust belt and UAW.

I think what people also fail to see is the long-term threat. An airline that is allowed to run the most popular routes will quickly run its competition out of business. A US-based airline is incapable of competeting with 3rd world wages and $100 trans-Atlantic fares. If you do the math, this is unsustainable for any airline. The American Consumer is too short-sighted to recognize that once FoC airlines manage to destroy the American aviation industry, they can charge whatever they like and/or offer wages as low as they want. I have no problem with Emirates or any other airline that has fair labor practices.

I will go back to a post someone else had regarding "$100 fares being what the consumer wants." This is a silly counterpoint. The consumer wants $0 fares. Does that mean airlines should offer free flights for all?

From what I understand (I could be wrong), there are many foreign airlines that aren't allowed to operate in U.S. airspace due to their safety standards. Which makes that a moot point.

slats fail, very well put! Every single word!

They'll pay what it takes to get pilots. If pilots will work for peanuts they'll pay peanuts. If pilots won't, they'll have to match the major, or better.

The staffing situation gives pilots the advantage right now.

Air Berlin is trying to bring the Southwest Effect to transatlantic flying. NAI is a whole different animal.

I've averaged 105 hrs credit/mo ytd. My numbers include pay, profit sharing, 401k DC & perdiem. Extrapolated over the course of a year I'll easily crack $215k total comp this year. I live in base and get at least 1 Greenslip a month. Last month I blocked 62 hours and credited 105.5. We are SHORT narrow body guys, it'll only get worse (or better depending on your view).

You had me at "topless"!;)

Like our Denver based friends?

To clarify, I never said anyone on here was supporting it, I said they were ok with it, meaning they voted for it. They let this camel in the tent and maybe they would have voted differently had they known the consequences, but you know hindsight is 20/20. Regardless, they voted for a b scale so they could get a pay raise. The irony I see is that they were ok with that because they were the ones who benefited at the expense of the next generation of pilots who've languished in regional hell, but obviously opposed to the next scheme that threatens them and lashing out against someone who supports it. Glass houses, man.
Regional guys are just doing what's always been done, taking that crap job for the experience to try to make the jump to that coveted mainline job. However nobody told them it was gonna take far longer than it previously had, and just when you start to get your head above water, you've become too expensive, and your flying gets shifted to somebody whose a little cheaper, forcing you to either leave the career or start back at the poverty line at the next bottom feeder. Now, imagine if United suddenly decided to outsource all their airbuses. Operated by Spirit Airlines doing business as United Plus! Can you imagine the outrage of the senior captains when United furloughs them and offers them preferential hiring at Spirit for first year pay? Come fly your same airplane for a fraction of your former pay and be an FO for a new captain half your age. Far fetched yes, but this has been happening over and over at the regionals. To make matters worse they get told by pompous asses its their fault by taking these jobs and perpetuating the race to the bottom.
Now when a new scheme comes along, you shouldn't really be surprised by some regional guys supporting it when it's certainly better than what they've been dealt. It will benefit me, so screw the mainline guys, what have they done for me? That's the same kind of thinking that created the regional shell game. Now as I said before, I certainly DO NOT support NAI. It is another scheme to get cheap labor and anyone who supports it is being rather short sighted in my opinion. It's foolish to think this is a good thing, just wish the mainline guys who allowed the regional circus to happen could have seen the results of their mistakes prior to their unfortunate votes.

What I said was 'if the laws change' (quoted above for reference). Several congressmen want more freedoms of air travel (for more 'competition' and lower prices for the public). If 9th freedom is granted, it would allow, for example, 'Viet Nam Air' or say 'Arik Air' to fly domestically in the US. (Both ok companies with FAA acceptable MX, not picking on anyone, just pulled them out of the hat). At first Delta would love to subcontract with them because it would be cheaper than contracting with a US regional. This would put US regional carriers at such a cost disadvantage, wages would go down or they would go out of business. Eventually no Americans could justify the cost of flight training for the low pay, and no Americans would sign up. Eventually it would catch on with main line flying, and the US legacies would be forced to lower wages to compete with any airline in the world who could get a permit to operate in the US.
And that would spell the end of the american airline industry, as the foreign (sometimes government owned) carriers would then undercut each other to gain market share. No American company could pay a living wage and be able to compete.

This is really far fetched, of course, but 'if the laws changed' I believe it would be the eventual outcome like so many other US industries.

How's that for laying it out for you?:D

I'm sorry, I guess I missed the part where anyone was forced to take a flying job. :confused:

I'm a little puzzled by folks who blame everyone but themselves for taking the job.

There were no guarantees. Just because things haven't panned out like they were supposed to, does that mean it's someone else's fault? :confused:

Do foreign airlines really want to operate city to city in the US? The business is already cut-throat and margins notoriously small. I think they simply want to be able to pick up and drop off as they hopscotch across the country from gateway city to gateway city. IF that is the case, why not simply require them to use US crews when flying domestically. They wouldn't be flying the BOS-PIT routes anyway.

In a word.... absolutely! Your "cut throat margins" are easily beat by third world wages, at not just the crew but support. Think Turkish air allowed to fly Istanbul to NY and then on to LA as they can now and not haul pax between the two american cities. If they could throw on pax and make more $ who wouldn't. Now think of an airline based in Jamaica, but crewed with contractors from anywhere in the world allowed to fly point to point anywhere in the US on subsidized 737's. Allow cabotage and it will happen in the US before the ink is dry.

None of them would want to serve all cities, just the lucrative markets. But North America is a very lucrative aviation market.

There not cut-throat margins anymore. Enplanements are down profits are up, with the canceled flights due to crews, companies are just increasing the fares. A pilot shortage is actually good for an airliner it allows them to increase their margins without another company coming in to take the market share, due to the limited resource. Allegiant is having this problem currently there are quite a few markets that they want to get in but the pilot training bottle neck is prohibiting them.

Imagine a US domestic airline, we'll call it "New York Air," that decided it wanted to fly to London and Acapulco, both from New York City, their hub. A normal airline would base their crews in New York, maintain an FAA air operator's certificate, and pay them according to US labor laws.

But, what if, to save money, this airline set up a subsidiary, headquarters in the Cayman Islands, called "New York Air International," and had their crews "based" in Acapulco, and flying trips through New York with a five day layover there without a hotel on their way to London, where they would stay 24 hours before returning back to New York for another long layover. Their domestic pilots don't have a scope clause in their contract, so they wouldn't be able to bid the international airline, but the new subsidiary could hire anyone (Mexicans, Russians, Lithuanians, whatever - ) who had the right to live in Mexico and could get a Cayman Islands ATP. In the beginning, of course, they would attract some US pilots who would just live in New York, but eventually they would find that it would be cheaper just to take anyone they could, all the while ignoring the onerous US labor protections that their domestic airline would be subjected to.

How long would the Uniteds and Deltas of this world be able to hold out before trying the same thing?

This is essentially what Norwegian Air International is trying to do.

I agree, but the discussion is on allowing FoC and what that can erode into. Who will QC NAI, Ireland? USA? Norway? Thailand? Who can, in this setup, revoke pilot certificates? What if two countries have audits and find different results?
On a separate note can a pilot legally for as a "contractor" and be issued a 1099, or equivalent? If he is a "contractor" for NAI can he manage his "company" and send someone in his place if he gets sick?

You can't be a 1099 contractor if a company can schedule your activities.

It's safe to say the title of this thread is ignorant and long term regional pilots will not be saved is this scam happens. The regionals were meant to be a short term job. 9/11 happened, the economy crashed, and the retirement age raising to 65 caused a lost decade with no movement to the majors. That is just bad timing. Wrecking the entire industry is not the solution.

The FAA already has authority to conduct ramp checks of foreign airlines, just as U.S. airlines are subjected to ramp checks abroad.

As was mentioned, a 1099 could not be used because the way that the tax code is written.

Rarely has a single post summarized a three-page thread full of sour grapes and victimhood so succinctly and accurately. Top marks, Hockeypilot.

"I didn't make it to the big leagues so screw the profession. I'll gladly fly a 787 for a nonunion foreign operator for barely more than CRJ CA pay, cuz ... well, cuz ALPA should've handed me a job at a major, dammit!"

MD-11 would have made a wonderful October 1983 SCAB at CAL.

Well, they had far better careers than any regional pilot of the last 15 years... so what's your point?

Tool, disgruntled, jerk, ignorant, idiot, jacka$$..... If you feel the need to describe me that way, that's ok, I will own it. Throw more at me if you will, that is ok.
I will not own the scab comment though...
Back to the meat of the matter-
Regional guys/gals have been slunking in the trenches for quite some time carrying American, United, Delta and Airways pax at stagnant "C" scale rates.The rest of America is moving forward in pay and benefits. Homes, cars, food and other material items are steadily increasing. How long will you slunk it out? Just maintaining your current lifestyle will be rather difficult without some type of side work.

Foreign carriers, such as NAI, would be an excellent opportunity for regional folks. Working for them would greatly increase your monetary standing and quality of life. Yes, more foreign carriers probably would hurt the big boys but honestly, who cares? Why defend and protect entities that most likely won't hire you anyway?

Our government will likely not allow anything like NAI to succeed. Better to keep most you in the Major's Gulags. In the unlikely event that something positive does occur (NAI granted rights), maybe preparing by getting your EASA license is in order?

Listed is a few training providers that canassist you in converting your ATP.

http://www.faatojaaconversion.com/

http://www.bristol.gs/the-easa-atpl/

http://www.traxair.com/jaa-easa-professinal-pilot-course/

http://www.naples-air-center.com/flight-school/easa-formerly-jaa-flight-training/multi-engine-instrument-rating-conversion/

http://www.easalicense.com/

Since leaving the regionals (corporate pilot now), I have tripled my pay and have time/money to fly a T-6. The decision to leave was difficult but ultimately it has paid dividends. How many of you competent, highly qualified pilot will continue to sit on your hands and do nothing?

MEMbrain, respectfully.... my first flight lesson was in 1985, flew often on Frontier Airlines Convair 580's, Hughes Air West operating out of LAS was common, PSA flew MD-80's. As I aged (with children mind you), a new airplane came out,,, it was total crazy! It was an Airbus A320. I maintained INS systems before laser gyro's on 747's... I remember when a good used P51 was $150,000. You might be wrong about me and the entitlement generation thing...