How can you assert that without seeing the work rules?


Sorry things didn't work out for you. Here's to better days ahead.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
It's safe to say the title of this thread is ignorant and long term regional pilots will not be saved is this scam happens. The regionals were meant to be a short term job. 9/11 happened, the economy crashed, and the retirement age raising to 65 caused a lost decade with no movement to the majors. That is just bad timing. Wrecking the entire industry is not the solution.
But DAL has CRJ pay on their books and has yet to pay it! CAL scabs welcomed back into ALPA. DAL shutting down Comair (Comair pilots having to start all over, would you still call NWA pilots having sour grapes if none of them were allowed to continue working at DAL if they complain?) DAL being allowed to force a company into bankruptcy and use bankruptcy laws only to get out of contract obligations. Legal agreements outright ignored by DAL and ALPA.

I do not promote NAI but I do have much confusion on who and what is really wrecking the entire industry. Maybe there is some justification of sour grapes and victimhood just like many mainline pilots had during or after the Lorenzo era. You forgot about Lorenzo Hockey.

Icahn was a peach too...

Everyone gets handed their job, unless of course you were a founder of the company.

Sorry I'm still confused. Which interview do you mean the one at DAL or the one at Endeavor EtD?

This is relevant how?

This is relevant how?

And this is mainline pilots' fault, how exactly?

Please explain.

The profession was wrecked by deregulation in the 1970's, robber barons like Lorenzo and Icahn in the 1980's, scope sales in the 1990's, and 9/11 and recession in the 2000's. Now that there's been consolidation and sensible capacity discipline, the industry is finally turning a corner, and pilots at the majors are slowly cashing in. The biggest threats right now are from state-supported mid-east carriers attempting to reinvent the industry in their image, and bottom-feeder Laker reincarnations using every loophole they can to exploit labor anywhere in the world.

As far as the regionals are concerned, market pressures will eventually lead to increased compensation, and fewer (but larger) RJ's. I feel bad for the "lost generation" who've spent too many years in an RJ and feel they can't start over at a major, I truly do. But, unless you're in your 50's, it's still the wisest career move.

That guy trolls like a boss.
Example:

To you the biggest threats is the med east carriers (I agree) but you can also add DAL management and ALPA's neglect and tolerance of what should also not have been allowed to occur!

You obviously have zero idea what you are talking about.

Nailed it!

It's not the regionals that whipsaw each other, it is the majors that cause the whipsaw to occur. An objective viewpoint here, or at least an attempt. Foreign carrier entry into the US market would be bad for the majors. The foreign carriers would do it cheaper because they would not be held to the same standard (i.e. operating cost), as their US counterparts. Therefore, over a period of time US majors would be forced to do one of two things. Move their business overseas or close the doors. No idea how long that would take.

Other side of the coin viewed by regional pilots and it has been stated previously. A regional pilot (FO) topping out at $45K a year looks at a foreign carrier willing to pay $60-80K a year as a definite improvement. If foreign carriers were allowed to operate in the US (cabotage), there would be a mass exodus from the regionals to the foreign carriers. I would not look down upon anyone who did so.
It would behoove all pilots to take a good look at what is going on in the regional industry and make an attempt to fix the payscale which is the primary driver of this thread. The guys at the majors (the ones still 20 years out from retirement) should look at what the possibilities are for their future employment. Help get the industry on both the regional and major level fixed.

So why don't you all apply and go to work for a foreign carrier?

Shanghai and Hong Kong are two of my favorite cities.

Regional airlines exist only because that's what major airlines want, the B scale. Regional airline pilots participate in the B scale and perpetuate the B scale because they have no other choice but to submit to the will of airline management, unions, and senior pilots. Having a regional airline exist also means pilots at the major airline make more money. Fix number one would be to bring all airline flying back under the umbrella of major airlines. We may actually see this in the future. If lack of qualified pilots means airlines must raise pay to attract pilots, then there is no longer a point to have a B scale regional airline.

At the regional level, FO pay is low because that's what union executive councils and the more senior pilot groups voted for at each regional airline. There is only one pot of money, regional airlines don't generally set their own ticket prices. Fix number two could be the pilots and union decide on how that pot of money will be divided up in a flatter way where Captains make less and FO's make more. Can you stomach that? Ideally, that pot of money would be increased, but if you ask for too big of a pot, said pot will be given to someone else's airline.

There is a disconnect on how long a pilot should be at a regional airline. Even under a best case scenario, the system is flawed. The system appears to be setup where a pilot enters the system as FO, upgrades in two years, and by year 5 leaves to go to the major airline for a pay cut. Nice in theory when it works, but it hasn't worked that way over the last 10 years. Many pilots are trying to make a career out of a regional airline.

In summary, this flow chart is probably a good way to sum it all up.

Should regional airlines (B scale) continue to exist?

If no, problem is basically solved.
If yes, should one expect he/she can make a career at a regional?

If no, then FO pay and Captain pay should be the same, flattened. Only longevity pays higher. You are forced to move up to a major or out. Hopefully there is a flow through program and the better airlines will have this. You want alpa representing your interests.

If yes, then Captains continue to make more at the expense of FO's, but all FO's have a shot at making a livable career at the regional. Hopefully you can get your hands on a bigger pot of money from the major airline. You don't want alpa under this situation, you need someone who truly represents your interests as a regional (B scale) pilot.

Very well stated.

If the NAI gets its way and we as a pilot group don't fix ourselves the foreign carriers WiLL come to us.

....and I have no desire to work for any foreign entity regardless of pay, but I would understand if others did. I'm sitting by my phone waiting for the "call" from one of OUR majors.

Any guesses when that will happen?

When has cabotage ever been mentioned during any of this NAI crap? Only by Moak and his boogie man in the closet band of thugs.

Cabotage: the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.
restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.

Is this not what NAI is after?

No. It's not. At all.

Roger. I crossed my "threads". Thanks for the correction.