Foreign airlines may save regional pilots
 

Let me start by saying this is not flame-bait, but the reality of a better life and career for most regional pilot does not lay with American legacy carriers. ALPA and the big three have turned their backs on the hard working and sometimes abused 18,000 regional pilots. Simple contract corrections, modest QOL improvements, solid flow and/or seniority list placement have been ignored. What do the legacy carriers expect the 18,000 pilot regional pilot monster to do… sit and wait to be invited to the exclusive esoteric party? If they had any common sense, they would include regional pilots now, and I mean tomorrow. If not, I believe our pilots livelihood and QOL improvements will be provided by foreign carriers. Again, this post is not meant to anger anybody, but you have to place yourself in the shoes of the everyday regional pilot.
I have exited the industry after flying for multiple regional carriers (4 types). I have no checkride failures, a degree plus multiple other FAA tickets… still no call from the big boys. I am not unusual, but rather a carbon copy of the multitudes of highly qualified regional folks that are currently out there and not getting called.
I fervently hope that foreign carriers are granted permission to operate in the U.S. and hire American pilots. I was very disappointed in the latest congressional vote concerning NAI.
Some of you may toss me aside as disgruntled, but there are thousands of other regional pilot that are of the same opinion but silent.
I will do everything I can to promote foreign carriers to operate in the U.S. and for regional pilots to convert their licenses for a better life.
REMEMBER, the legacies created this 18,000 regional pilot monster,,,, please accept the repercussions.
For regional pilots, listed below is a bit of info concerning a possible better way of life.

If you have an ICAO ATP and more than 500 hours on Multi Pilot Aircraft:
Your Requirements in Brief
Pass 14 Written Exams
Obtain a First Class Medical
Pass Training as Required in a Flight Simulator
Approximately $2000

As an example concerning regional compensation… compare this to your Regional paycheck….
Norwegian pays its captains about $170,000 annually and pays first officers about half that.
Again not flamebait,,,, but if you insist. ALPA you can kiss my A$$

The Deny NAI campaign scares the crap out of me. It's uber anti-competitive and shows the power of lobby groups in Washington. I'll never back the PAC to fund stuff like this.

I'd gladly work for a foreign carrier. It'd be a great experience, especially in Asia. Seems like most are wanting typed high time captains though, which doesn't really help a large segment of the American regional pilot group.

So go to Asia? Inviting flag of convenience scheme in aviation will surely make the industry go the way of the maritime industry.
Why wouldn't it? Safety and expensive labor laws will take a back seat to profits and margin.
What an Asian carrier won't hire you because of lack of experience? What makes you think the contract companies from Singapore will be any more interested in you if cabotage or flag of convenience is instituted?

Remember, for every Emirates there are three Ryan Airs.

This.

What you will eventually see is very cheap foreign airlines lowering wages to offer lower and lower fares. It's the only piece of the puzzle left that can be controlled. With the high level of automation in the newest widebodies, it will be easier to hire inexperienced crew to manage the airplane. This will all be fine until the incidents like Air France, Asiana, Air Malaysia start killing Americans. By the time it becomes a problem, the American airline industry will already be in shambles. Let's be 100% honest; there is absolutely no reason to have trans-Atlantic roundtrip fares for $100 in a $100 million jet burning tens of thousands of dollars in jet fuel.

There is also no reason that we have thousands of pilots here in the US making poverty wages. I say let these foreign companies come in. At least they pay a livable wage.

So, in 20 years, everyone gets to make a barely livable wage while working in the Middle East? Sign me up.

Agreed. Foreign carriers working in the US would be the new low cost-low pay model, but with bigger airplanes.

It is the worst thing that could possibly happen to the airline pilots in America.

There is a reason why ALPA is against it.

It's because of threads likes this that makes me glad I only have 17 years 14 days left to retire. It's about to get dramatically better at the Regionals, instead of inviting Cabotage in our house continue to support the big 3 that voted NO to concessions this past winter. Staffing is so tight now flights are being cancelled & planes parked. Upgaging will continue at mainline carriers and big RJs will be brought into the mainline fleets.....creating additional jobs on top of the jobs due to the retirement wave.

I agree with one part of the original post. ALPA can suck it at the REGIONAL level. You guys need a RALPA. That does not have a conflicting interest. Organize, advertise, protest, informational picketing, put up the big Rat, full page newspaper ads.

But you don't treat indigestion & heartburn by inviting a cancerous virus in to counteract it. In the end you'll need Chemo and what's left of the industry will be devastated and working for a "livable" wage. A livable wage in the US now is around $50 grand. Do you REALLY want livable wages flying big metal around the US? I'm an 8th yr DAL narrow body right seater. My total comp this year, excluding the value of healthcare will be around $215,000 & I'm home on average 15 days a month.

You can take cabotage and a "livable" wage and shove it.

This post is extremely ignorant. You are comparing 787 pay to regional jet pay. There are regional captains making $100-$120k per year. How is flying as a 787 captain for $170k per year an improvement? Eventually that low 787 pay will force the rj captain pay and legacy pay even lower until they just go out of business.

No reason? I'm a consumer, and I want a $100 round trip fare. That's reason enough. It's why these airlines exist. You might as well say that after deregulation there was no reason for cheaper transcontinental fares and that Southwest, JetBlue, etc shouldn't exist.

Hate it all you want but this is Capitlism and is how a free market society suppose to function. Let the market decide.

Yay for you. I am 8 yrs in and I will make 37k this year. Enjoy the money.

Yup, let's remove the EPA, the FAA, the SEC, etc because all these government entities hamper the free market. In a TRUELY free market society, if it made more sense for us to be dumping chemical waste into a playground to save money, it would happen (see: Cuyohoga River in the 1970s...only it wasn't a playground, it was drinking water). The moral compass in a completely free market has north pointing toward the dollar sign and whatever would make the most profits.

The rules and system in place, does not favor true capitalism. This is not true capitalism. What we witness day in and day out, the entire game is skewed and rigged in favor of a few players.

So you want to burn the entire american transportation model to the ground because "boo hoo for me?" No one would have predicted 15 years ago when scope was released and regionals began to expand that the regional model would turn into mini-majors with wages at a fraction of the cost. The US free market is speaking right now. Things are changing for the better and when the majors pick up hiring, there will be even more change. CommutAir was just the beginning.

How would you feel if the US government allowed the majors to hire any pilot in the world with "1500" hours. Pilots in SE Asia would come over in droves to work for $38,000 a year and might actually even do it for less days off. Happy free market to you.

I don't even know where to begin. Are you really that naive?

You do realize that we are nowhere near pure capitalism, right? Pure capitalism by definition entails zero government regulations, zero barriers to entry.

NIA is a problem precisely because it exists outside of the fair market, outside of our "society," else why would a Norwegian arline need to be based in Ireland?

"Capitalism" requires a level playing field. NIA, mideast carriers, etc certainly aren't playing on a level field. Capitalism is not even remotely involved here.

You want the "market" to decide. But the "market" has nothing to do with the outcome--the winner will be whoever exploits bureaucratic loopholes, or whoever pays the most to have loopholes created or closed. NIA/ME carriers are counting on ignorant rubes to yawn while they wipe us out. So far, so good.

It's not a boo hoo party for me. 15,000 regional pilots make horrible wages. How is this system not broken? yet no one cares or does anything to help us out. suddenly alpa cares about nai? What about it's own pilots who make way less than what these foreign guys pay. its sad how far down the river the pilots in this country have been sold. Open your eyes and look what happened right here its way worse than little ole nai or any other foreign carrier.

Foreign airlines may save regional pilots
 

Not tons of outside coverage on this issue. Here's a recent article with which I wholly agree:

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-bl...r-union-favors

Yes, and we all bit on this with the promise of higher paying jobs that never came. Now that there is a realization amongst regional pilots that this career flying 76 seats for 19 seat prop wages is a sham, we have to do something about it. The answer is not to spite everyone else and destroy your country's transportation infrastructure. The attitude is "well, if I can't have it, no one can have it." If you want to go to a foreign carrier and makes less than your major airlines brethren while competing against them on the same routes, are you really truly any better than a regional jet pilot? There are how many 10s of thousands of RJ pilots? If every single one of them went to NAI, do you think they'd be hiring at 170k/70k anymore? I have no problem with foreign carriers. If they operate within the same system that we do and pay fair and competitive wages, then I'm all for you leaving your family and home to go there. Just don't claim it's for the best of the industry or the free market when you take a job at a fraction of what it should be when all you're doing is getting it for yourself.

Read it. Of course a super-conservative think tank leaning libertarian is going to side on the company over the union. That's what conservatives do. They support big business and trickle down economics. Of course, most powerful conservatives are also the CEOs and/or majority shareholders in those businesses. Of course they don't want the little people (labor) to oppose discount labor. Tell me, how has the trickle down helped anyone in the middle class? Ninety percent of the gains have been made by the top 10% of wage-earners. I digress.

You just don't get it!! You, NOT ALPA signed up for the wages you are making!! ALPA just neg. wages that you vote on. You don't have to vote YES, you don't HAVE to go to work for a company that doesn't pay fair wages in your view!!! Please, for all the NAIVE posters on here please take RESPONSIBILITY for your actions and quit trying to blame somebody else for what you don't think is fair!! As far as the NAI argument please try to know the FACTS prior to posting!! ALPA is not against NAI they are just against them skirting around rules that ALL domestic carriers have to face! (i.e.- like taxes) Why do you think Apple has most of there profits booked in Ireland? Because, the Irish like the Iphone more? NO, Mcfly it's called TAX avoidance!! Why do you think Qutar Airlines is 100% GOVERNMENT owned? Because their Government likes airplanes? NO, it's so they can SUBSIDIZE IT!! Wake up people!! And to the original poster, is that avitar a current picture of you? ;) Because if it is, it explains a lot!! :o

CEIs history/funding aside, Libertarian or classically liberal does not equal conservative.

170k for a 787 captain? What do you think they would pay for a 737/A320? an E175? You can bet if they pay less then United on a 787 they won't pay more on anything else. I'm not talking just about NAI. If you open the door to flag of convenience, somebody will fly E175s and they won't pay F/Os a living wage either. Not that professional pilots should ever make "just" a living wage. There is a reason they want to skirt labor laws and it's not so they can pay you more to fly their airplanes.

Typically American libertarians tend to be more pro laissez-faire capitalism than socialism. I guess I should be careful when I generalize.

How about you and the rest of the 18,000 regional pilots do what we have already done....... interview and EARN your position at a major vs. having a job at a major handed to you. You are a perfect example of the entitlement generation at it's finest.

So you're saying all you mainliners earned those extra 5 years of flying, which in large part hampered the need for mainlines to open up the door for people who earned the right to interview at said mainlines? Did I get that right? Since when was being qualified for something greater considered an entitlement?

Now now. The "entitlement generation" as you call it may have been given a lot growing up (their parents fault) but the only thing they've gotten once they graduated was a recession and limping economy while be straddled with record debt. Their parents' generation has been greedy and essentially eating their young through unparalleled tuition hikes and people retiring later, and the devastation of the middle class. If there is an entitlement generation, it's the Baby Boomers who spoiled their kids rotten and, with an expanding economy, had numerous opportunities for advancement. Is it our fault that we saw how easy our parents had it and just want the same?

Having only been with the regionals a short time, I can't imagine why so many chose to endure this. Stagnation was pretty obvious over the last decade. Why not leave and do something else? Those just joining the regionals now are closer to upgrade than some who have been sticking it out for years.

If this thread represents the attitude, awareness, and knowledge of the issues affecting our profession, then sadly, our profession is lost. The future generation of pilots is inheriting a 100 year legacy of struggle and fights with the governments and airline bosses. To suggest handing over the richest consumer market to new entrants that don't have to play by the same rules as those imposed on incumbent carriers is misguided at best.

The arrogance to think foreign airlines, the likes of NAI will represent any kind of long-term industry-wide improvement to your pay, quality of life, retirement, or medical assistance is just laughable.

If you only want a cheap airline ticket on an airline with marginal infrastructure, the NAI's of the world may be the way to go. If on the other hand you're a pilot and want any semblance of a career, defeating NAI (and those that will follow) is the most important battle of your career.

The OP's man-boy tantrum is akin to "taking his ball and going home." But, when you get over yourselves, I hope you can man up an see the threat that's on your doorstep is a game changer, and you won't like the game.

The problem is most people on this regional forum don't have a career, we have a job. There is a big difference. If ALPA wanted the support of all their members they would of taken on the domestic issues first and united the membership. They didn't and the result is thousands of members like me, I have a job, not a career and don't care about NAI or some pre-clerance facility in the Middle East. I get the threat but I really don't care. I do not have, nor does it appear I will ever have a career in this industry while living in the US.

It is indeed about you, the majority of those 15,000 pilots have had a vote and choices. If you want to see the problem look in the mirror, for every bad concessionary contract there was a majority of pilots voting for it. Face it you are weak and management knows it. You made bad choices from the time you spent 100K on your training for a 20K job, your "desire and need" to fly put you right where you sit. You think you are "owed" what? You want it, you gotta take it.....

For the sake of argument:
For whom is the threat of the game greater? The struggling regional pilot stuck at $37000/yr with nothing but empty promises or the pilot who's made it to the big leagues?

We could say this industry was lost the day Major pilot unions signed scope away for pay raises. Just because some people think this way does not mean we all do. It also does not mean it is the end of the industry because someone thinks this is a good Idea and you do not. I do not support foreign airlines coming here with all of their schemes. How ever I do understand the OP's point of view and respect his opinion. There are a lot of us who have been burnt badly in our short careers. We here a lot of it is just our entitlement attitude but when age 65 was passed we could not speak up against it with out getting harassed that we didn't understand what is like to lose your retirement right before you retire. And they are right, We will not have any kind of retirement other then a 401k we will have spent 6-8 years making under 45k a year some of us well under it all well most of us have student loan debt. We also hear about how we have to earn a job to go to mainline and not expect a flow. Some of us think that if we are a wholly owned we are earning our major partner a profit and we are putting our time in and feel this should be us earning our way. We both work for the same INC why not allow us to step up to the big leagues if we have shown we are a good employee. Some of the Pilot at the majors didnt earn it the same way others have. We have all been hired at different times when their were different needs of each airline. My point is we all could do a with a little more humility and trying to understand where others are coming from. And then use that to help build a better industry.

Which part of the Constitution was that again? Or was it the Bill of Rights?
Entitlement at its worst.....

I get that, my days at a regional airline (to 135 rules) felt the same way some 20+ years ago. It sucked then, I'm sure it sucks now and I completely empathize with the pain of career stagnation. When I was hired I worked with guys who stagnated in the 60's and 70's and flew almost 20 years as a flight engineer. I had about 4500 hours regional PIC to even be near competitive (in addition to the MIL flight time) to go a major.

I don't want to come across as some old timer telling "back in my day" stories. I only offer it as perspective on how slowly this industry can, and has churned pilot manpower. There aren't enough guys in the regional ranks right now to cover retirement and growth at the majors, the future is truly yours if you don't blow it.

It's ironic that the guys who have the least to lose are leading the fight on NAI. I'll be retired before the industry falls apart. The issue IS a threat to regional pilots and their future career opportunity. To fail in defeating NAI will cement the fact that you'll only ever have a job, not a career. Sincerely, good luck.

My point is that non of us have truly earned the right to be where we are in the pilot totem. We all got to where we are based upon a multitude of factors (market forces, timing, bad luck/good luck, knowing the right people, being a slave to the man, rule changes etc.) Just because a curmudgeon of a captain made it one way, doesn't make it the only or right way of making it up the ranks. To me, it seems the group of people who keep throwing the entitlement card into the discussion are the ones who are least in touch with today's reality that the younger pilot cadre face.

Yeah, I EARNED my right to fly as long as I'm allowed to fly or want to fly. I could retire now, but being senior, the schedule is like a part time job and I earn over $300K, so I would be stupid to retire.

Just because you are qualified on paper doesn't mean that you get to have a job at a major handed to you without earning it by going through a thorough interview and screening process, like all of us did. Call it "Defending the Profession" if you will. We at the majors only want the "best of the best" working alongside. So if you think are ready to become one of us, apply, interview and get selected like we did. Then we will accept you as one of us.

Sweet and sour grapes man. Life isn't fair. Sometimes the best hand is knowing when to fold. Showing a little "labor price elasticity" in your vocational choices would serve you hung-start regional types well.

Anyone that went to an aviation university and got saddled with many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt all for a twenty thousand dollar a year job, isn't very smart and deserves the situation they willingly and knowingly put themselves into.