Raising Regional Pilot Pay?
06-24-2014 | 10:05 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 265
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From: Captain - Retired
Raising entry level pay isn't the answer. It's raising the pay for non entry level new hires.
The shortage isn't of pilots, it's only of low time pilots who are (and should be) willing to work at very low wages for a year or two until they actually have experience and aren't low time anymore.
The problem is that the seniority system in the airlines (all airlines, even the big ones) requires that all new pilots be treated as if they've never flown an airliner before and paid accordingly.
Get rid of or highly modify the seniority system at regionals and you'll solve the problem.
The shortage isn't of pilots, it's only of low time pilots who are (and should be) willing to work at very low wages for a year or two until they actually have experience and aren't low time anymore.
The problem is that the seniority system in the airlines (all airlines, even the big ones) requires that all new pilots be treated as if they've never flown an airliner before and paid accordingly.
Get rid of or highly modify the seniority system at regionals and you'll solve the problem.
06-25-2014 | 02:41 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: Plane Owner
Raising entry level pay isn't the answer. It's raising the pay for non entry level new hires.
The shortage isn't of pilots, it's only of low time pilots who are (and rishould be) willing to work at very low wages for a year or two until they actually have experience and aren't low time anymore.
The problem is that the seniority system in the airlines (all airlines, even the big ones) requires that all new pilots be treated as if they've never flown an airliner before and paid accordingly.
Get rid of or highly modify the seniority system at regionals and you'll solve the problem.
The shortage isn't of pilots, it's only of low time pilots who are (and rishould be) willing to work at very low wages for a year or two until they actually have experience and aren't low time anymore.
The problem is that the seniority system in the airlines (all airlines, even the big ones) requires that all new pilots be treated as if they've never flown an airliner before and paid accordingly.
Get rid of or highly modify the seniority system at regionals and you'll solve the problem.
06-25-2014 | 10:35 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 500
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That's seems pretty high for a small jet. For sake of comparison Southwest says it costs about $4,800/hr to operate a -700. I see how the 145 is not cost effective if $5,000/hr is an accurate number. The -700 burns about 4,800 lbs/hr in cruise and the crew cost (2 pilots + 3 FAs) is about $475/hr. That's $2,700/hr for fuel and crew spread out over 143 seats. Fuel and crew on the -800 is about $3,150/hr spread across 175 seats.
06-25-2014 | 10:51 AM
#26
Doing One Pilot's Job
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,887
Likes: 122
The 2013 Business & Commercial Aviation Operations Planning Guide shows a Legacy 650 (corporate version of a 145XR) has direct operating costs (fuel, maintenance, engine reserves) of just under $2400/hr; a Challenger 850 (corporate version of CRJ-200) is a hair over $2900/hr.
If you add crew costs, you must add not only the hourly payrates but amortized benefits/training/etc. in order to get a realistic number.
In the end, doing so is largely academic because regional carriers generally get a fixed fee for departure that covers cost + profit. Any increase in costs cuts into that profit, and mainline partners are not going to pay more than their lift contracts dictate - they'll come up with non-financial incentives (this EtD program) or simply terminate agreements due to the regional's inability to meet contractual requirements.
If you add crew costs, you must add not only the hourly payrates but amortized benefits/training/etc. in order to get a realistic number.
In the end, doing so is largely academic because regional carriers generally get a fixed fee for departure that covers cost + profit. Any increase in costs cuts into that profit, and mainline partners are not going to pay more than their lift contracts dictate - they'll come up with non-financial incentives (this EtD program) or simply terminate agreements due to the regional's inability to meet contractual requirements.
06-25-2014 | 11:38 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Just to add fuel to the fire,......
* On a 1 hour flight in a 50 seat aircraft, (assuming an airplane full of revenue passengers), a first year First Officer (i.e. XJT) is paid 43 cents per seat. If it's a 67 seat airplane, every passenger contributes a mere 34 cents to the co-pilot for that same 1 hour flight.
* Same scenareo and a 5 year co-pilot; 82 cents of every passengers fare goes to the co-pilot on a CRJ 200. It falls to 64 cents per seat on the CRJ 700.
* At the top of the XJT CRJ 700 F/O payscale, (18 years) each passenger seat contributes a whopping 70 cents per hour to the co-pilot.
* 5 year Captain makes $1.36 per seat in the 200 but falls to $1.06 in the CRJ 700.
A regional airline could *DOUBLE* pilot pay by adding about $2.00 to the price of every ticket. And here's the dirty little secret that management won't admit: at the same time.........they could *DOUBLE* or *TRIPLE* their number of pilot applicants!
But hey,....that might cut into management bonuses, so let's not think along those lines. We'd rather see the airline fold than dig into our bonus structures.
$2.00!
* On a 1 hour flight in a 50 seat aircraft, (assuming an airplane full of revenue passengers), a first year First Officer (i.e. XJT) is paid 43 cents per seat. If it's a 67 seat airplane, every passenger contributes a mere 34 cents to the co-pilot for that same 1 hour flight.
* Same scenareo and a 5 year co-pilot; 82 cents of every passengers fare goes to the co-pilot on a CRJ 200. It falls to 64 cents per seat on the CRJ 700.
* At the top of the XJT CRJ 700 F/O payscale, (18 years) each passenger seat contributes a whopping 70 cents per hour to the co-pilot.
* 5 year Captain makes $1.36 per seat in the 200 but falls to $1.06 in the CRJ 700.
A regional airline could *DOUBLE* pilot pay by adding about $2.00 to the price of every ticket. And here's the dirty little secret that management won't admit: at the same time.........they could *DOUBLE* or *TRIPLE* their number of pilot applicants!
But hey,....that might cut into management bonuses, so let's not think along those lines. We'd rather see the airline fold than dig into our bonus structures.
$2.00!
Any discussion of ticket prices is completely misguided. Regional airlines operate under the "fee for departure" business model. We're in a totally different business than the majors/LCCs.
06-25-2014 | 03:27 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 119
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From: Plane Owner
people need to pay what a service costs.
eggs and bread costs the same for just about everyone - basically the going rate.
if people paid what an unsubsidized ticket really costs it would be the going rate.
no fancy math trick makes anyone an honest profit. (i.e., sit 8 but only paid for 4 u fly)
if pilots all said i cant fly for $26 an hour eventually tickets would be the going rate.
and pilots would get paid what their number was to leave a land based job for the window view seat. (i did a previous post on what number would get you to leave and work for an airline)
i apologize for any punctuation or typo errors all from a phone.
good flying
eggs and bread costs the same for just about everyone - basically the going rate.
if people paid what an unsubsidized ticket really costs it would be the going rate.
no fancy math trick makes anyone an honest profit. (i.e., sit 8 but only paid for 4 u fly)
if pilots all said i cant fly for $26 an hour eventually tickets would be the going rate.
and pilots would get paid what their number was to leave a land based job for the window view seat. (i did a previous post on what number would get you to leave and work for an airline)
i apologize for any punctuation or typo errors all from a phone.
good flying
06-25-2014 | 03:38 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,613
Likes: 8
From: Bus driver
For math purposes, in RFP's a -200/-145 is around $1000/hr and a -900/-175 is around $1250. Corporate (a few hundred hours a year) vs a regional at 1000+ per airframe is a different metric. Carry on, just spitting out some realistic numbers for the math gurus.
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