Logging PIC time as a FO
 

Just sat on the jumpseat listening to the captain tell me that I can log all my SIC time as PIC time since I hold a type rating for it now. I didn't really get into much with him cause I haven't been up to date much on logging flight time rules in the last 4 years. Could I log it is PIC even tho the captain is the designated PIC and I'm just a lowly FO?

Anything would be nice at least it will be a change in the mood of what's going on at what airline.
Thanks

You can search for this topic. It has been discussed at length. I think legally you could but since it's 121/135, then it does no good. If you attempt to go to a major they will be really mad when they see this and at a minimum not hire you...if they don't black list you. The only person that should be logging PIC time is the one who's name is on the release.

If you're looking to apply to a major airline, none of them are going to consider any time as PIC unless you were the one who signed for the aircraft.

There is only one PIC listed on the release. And that's either the captain or line trainer or check airman... and its not the first officer.

Agree with above. You can log sole manipulator time, but it isn't what the airlines are looking for. They want time you had authority and responsibility for the flight as the designated PIC. I have heard a lot of corporate jobs want sole manipulator time listed.

No. No. No. No. No.

Not only should FOs log PIC on 121 flights, they should set the tone for the day, and sign the release for the captain.

short answer with a question - who does the FAA come after when something goes wrong?

You can put whatever you want into your logbook, but if I were you I would stick to standard practice of only logging it when you are the PIC of record.

Even when I was getting CA OE I didn't log PIC time, as the LCA was the PIC of record. So no way I would think of logging it as an FO.

They will come after both pilots....

Cheap corporate/charter operators do that to legally pad the times for insurance purposes. Airlines don't care about that...

Airlines want to see PIC time in accordance with Part 1 (ie. responsible for the aircraft), and don't care about Part 61 PIC (ie. sole manipulator).

Its your logbook, log it how you want to...but be fully prepared to justify in an interview why you logged a bunch of turbine PIC time when you were a first officer who never signed for the plane AND for the people interviewing you to frown upon your reasoning.

IMO, doing so is a high risk/low reward proposition.

This is a great question.

The short answer is BOTH pilots.

While the captain may sign the release, both pilots are equally responsible for the safe outcome of the flight. If the captain misses something in the mx log and you go flying with an open writeup? Yep, both of you get violated.

But one of us gets paid considerably less.

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't going to count it. Just made me think about and how a senior wide body captain disconnected from the real word.

At a bunch of regionals the FO also signs the release...

Only log it if you're in the left seat (unless you're an LCA)

Simple real answer....dont be an idiot and log PIC as a 121 regional FO. The Capt is the PIC on the release. He/she will be the PIC, it will be a guarantee you will be turned away by a major at the interview.

What idiot would log PIC time as a regular line FO in 121? That's an instant application shredder, as it should be.

My FO can log whatever the heck he wants. Its his logbook. However, he knows WHO is in charge and thats NOT him.

No. You are not the PIC. Whoever told the OP that is very old and confused.

There is some confusion about this due to part 61. And many foreign airlines will accept type rated sole manipulator to be used towards total PIC and PIC on type.

But make no mistake about it your sole manipulator time will not be counted towards PIC for the purpose of getting a job with an airline in the USA. In fact it will most probably get you un-hired from an interview in a big hurry.

Do what you think is prudent.

Gentlemen. There is a difference between logging PIC and being PIC.

An appropriately licensed and rated FO may log PIC time on his/her legs.

For many 121 major and national carriers this would be the kiss of death during an interview.

For many 91 and 135 operators this would be acceptable and help you meet insurance minimums.

My advice is to not log it until you are in the left seat. If you do decide to log it; create a separate column to track 121PIC for when you have upgraded.

Some employers will immediately show you the door for logging PIC while assigned as an FO.

Why risk it.

I don't see how you could even log it as sole manipulator under part 61 if you wanted.

You are operating under part 121 rules/ops pecs. You did not have a fed check.

First officers can not log PIC. Only the acting pic can log pic in a 121 operation.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...AND%20TIME.pdf

Stupid pt 117, FO signing the release for "fit for duty". You may be "signing the release" but you're not signing for the "release".

This made perfect sense in my head, im sure this only made sense to me.

Get used to that. Most of those guys have absolutely no clue.

That has not been my experience, most of the jobs that I know of abroad actually do NOT accept this time at all.....! As a matter of fact, most don't even accept the PIC time some people write while they were doing their IOE...., since it is really dual received time because your instructor/check airman is the one listed on the release as the PIC. You are on the left seat manipulating the controls and still they won't accept it.

Awesome....

Well, that is because you don't understand the regulations.

Did you even read that PDF? It doesn't support your assertion.

Oh wise guru, please enlighten.

Because if you want to look at sole manipulator under 61, there is an exception :"(2) This section does not apply to a pilot in command who is employed by a part 119 certificate holder authorized to conduct operations under part 121 when the pilot is engaged in a flight operation under parts 91 and 121 for that certificate holder if the pilot in command is in compliance with §§121.435 or 121.436, as applicable, and §121.439 of this chapter."

You are quoting 61.57. The applicable reg is 61.51(e). 61.51 is the only reg that addresses pilot logbooks. Like I said, you don't understand what you're talking about.

Fine. 61.51.e.iii

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

The flight would be operated under 121. Still can't log it.

Try again.

You can try again because all that's says it the PIC can always log PIC time, says nothing about the SIC. English is such a difficult language.

So let's bring this back to reality...

Is it legal to log? YES!

Will it be respected on a resume? NO! (with very few exceptions).

Log your time in a way that is easy to tally depending on what prospective employers want.

Simple enough for everybody?

Also can we sticky this since it comes up about once a week?

It doesn't specify PIC or SIC. It says pilot. The logging of flight time would be controlled under 121/ops specs .

I'll have to disagree with you depending on the country we are talking about. Chinese contract folk seemed more than willing in fact encouraged the practice. I have no idea about Japan or Korea. My situation was a few years back I had 700 +/- PIC hours on the A-320/319 with about 1500 TT on that airframe. Out of curiosity had filled out several letters of interest with a couple of different Chinese contract outfits. They all told me that I could use sole manipulator time if I had been a type rated F/O to fulfill the 1,000 hour PIC requirement. I never took any of them up on the offers so I can't verify how it would have turned out.

But I will say this one more time just so it is clear. DO NOT log type rated FAR 121 sole manipulator time as PIC in your log book for the purpose of fulfilling PIC requirements for any U.S. airline. I wouldn't do it under any circumstances, if some foreign contract outfit wants to credit you with sole manipulator time then you can work out the details as necessary.

Yes, you can log it. There are several interpretations. I've copied one below.

As has been noted, most (if not all) airlines will NOT count that time as PIC so you'll need a way to remove it easily from your totals when filling out job applications.

That leaves the question of whether or not you should log it. I don't because there's no reason to log it.

Legal Interpretation # 92-46

August 3, 1992

Mr. William Clay Cunningham

Dear Mr. Cunningham:

Thank you for your letter of September 28, 1991, in which you ask
a question about the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time when
operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR).

Before addressing your question, I would like to first apologize
for the delay in responding to your letter. In recent months, a
large number of priority projects have been assigned to this
division that have prevented us from responding in a more timely
manner to the many requests for interpretations. Mr. Irshad A.
Haqq of my staff recently discussed this situation and the
question raised in your letter with you via telephone. This
letter constitutes our formal reply.

In your letter, you pose the following scenario: under a part
135 operation, the flight crew of a 19 seat deHaviland Twin Otter
(DHC-6-300) consists of a captain and first officer, neither of
whom is required to possess a type rating to act as a flight
crewmember. You then ask whether the first officer may log PIC
time for the period during which he is the sole manipulator of
the controls of the aircraft. You also explain that you have
received conflicting answers from local FAA personnel to whom you
have posed this question.

The answer to your question is yes. Under Section 61.51(c)(2) of
the FAR, the first officer may log as PIC time that time during
which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft.
In fact, both the captain, assuming he is the designated PIC
required under Section 135.109, and the first officer may
simultaneously log as PIC time that time during which the first
officer is the sole manipulator of the controls.

We recently rendered an interpretation encompassing the issue you
raise as well as other questions related to the logging of PIC
time under the FAR. A copy of that June 25, interpretation
addressed to Mr. Dallas Butler is enclosed for your reference and
convenience. The sections of the FAR that are pertinent to this
issue are cited in that letter.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your question.

Sincerely,


/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

My take on this issue is yes it is legal to log it, but the flight time is only valid for the furtherance of a certificate or rating. Most Legacies or Majors will not recognize that time towards their applicable minimums. If there is a PIC requirement, it almost always is the Part 1 definition. Also, there are enough questions during the course of an interview, why would you want to expand the range of questions? Especially, since you would be on the wrong side of this issue. Ultimately, it is the hiring airline that decides which time is applicable towards their respective minimums.

Perhaps you need to try again, because like I said, you don't understand the regulations. Subpart (e) deals with pilot in command.

61.51 (e)(iii) is one way you are allowed to log Pilot in Command. Sections i, ii, iii, and iv are all different ways you are allowed to log Pilot in Command.

The pertinent regulation is 61.51(e)(i):

It doesn't matter if the flight is operated under 91, 135, 121, or any other reg. If the pilot is rated in the aircraft and the sole manipulator, they can log it as PIC.

Is it a good idea? For 121, absolutely not. Is it legal? Yes.

I'm only a 135 guy, not 121, but I haven't seen an Ops Specs that said anything about logging flight time in a pilot logbook.

Once you get hired by an airline they don't care how you log your time.