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Old 09-12-2014, 02:56 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Delta1067 View Post
Probably because it's an entry level job and they have always been able to put butts in the seats. Supply and demand. When the supply runs out then the pay will go up. The supply has tightened and we are seeing carrots such as EtD. Regional FO pay will never be anything substantial due to the nature of the best of it being an entry level position and very easily attainable.
But regional pilots like to consider their Embry Riddle education equivalent to doctors and lawyers.
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:29 AM
  #42  
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Ive read this thread a bit and decided to throw my $.02 to keep the fire going.

It would seem that everybody considers the regionals entry level positions. There seems to be a bit of a conflict with this though. How can this be entry if we have a supposed "1 level of safety"?

Though we gripe about our pay lets not forget that QOL is also very important. Some folks like more $$, while others like to be home with family more.

Speaking of QOL and pay, Over at C5 the FOs got a substantial raise, because our recruiting and retention was dissmal. Now its just retention. Why? Because QOL is still hurting.

Now before anybody asks, IMHO we do need to stick together as a pilot group. This INCLUDES majors. I do hear many mainline guys talking about this industry going down the tubes. They can help by supporting their regional partners, not by beating them down with the "pay your dues" hammer. Again 1 level of safety.

Again my $.02
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:58 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by NeverHome View Post
Ive read this thread a bit and decided to throw my $.02 to keep the fire going.

It would seem that everybody considers the regionals entry level positions. There seems to be a bit of a conflict with this though. How can this be entry if we have a supposed "1 level of safety"?

Though we gripe about our pay lets not forget that QOL is also very important. Some folks like more $$, while others like to be home with family more.

Speaking of QOL and pay, Over at C5 the FOs got a substantial raise, because our recruiting and retention was dissmal. Now its just retention. Why? Because QOL is still hurting.

Now before anybody asks, IMHO we do need to stick together as a pilot group. This INCLUDES majors. I do hear many mainline guys talking about this industry going down the tubes. They can help by supporting their regional partners, not by beating them down with the "pay your dues" hammer. Again 1 level of safety.

Again my $.02
"One level of safety" is a meaningless catch phrase thrown around by grand standing politicians. Regional airlines always have been and always will be inferior to any mainline company. Their very existence is predicated on them being the absolute cheapest. This is naturally going to lead to cut corners in hiring and training standards as well as every other aspect of the operation.

If an RJ crew had a dual engine failure on climb out over NYC, the last words on the CVR would have been "dude, we're gonna hit those buildings" just before the stall/spin into lower Manhattan.

There is simply no comparison between mainline and regionals.
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:06 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by toomanyrjs View Post
"One level of safety" is a meaningless catch phrase thrown around by grand standing politicians. Regional airlines always have been and always will be inferior to any mainline company. Their very existence is predicated on them being the absolute cheapest. This is naturally going to lead to cut corners in hiring and training standards as well as every other aspect of the operation.

If an RJ crew had a dual engine failure on climb out over NYC, the last words on the CVR would have been "dude, we're gonna hit those buildings" just before the stall/spin into lower Manhattan.

There is simply no comparison between mainline and regionals.
LOL

jjjj
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:09 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by toomanyrjs View Post

If an RJ crew had a dual engine failure on climb out over NYC, the last words on the CVR would have been "dude, we're gonna hit those buildings" just before the stall/spin into lower Manhattan.

There is simply no comparison between mainline and regionals.
Years ago an ASA RJ (think they were Riddle grads) took off from JFK, got over NJ & FMS failed. Declared an emergency and went back to JFK! No ****e! ASA POI not too happy when they got the report.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:08 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by akulahunter View Post
OK, at some point I believe we have forgotten we live in a capitalistic society... Regional pay will not be much higher anytime soon. Why would it be? There are too many pilots willing to work for what the regionals are paying, because there is the hope of making it to mainline. It's simple economics. Most of the people on this forum (and hopefully me soon as well) are flying in the regionals and knew what the pay was before accepting the job offer. Why? Because mainline carriers pay a ton more!

No matter how many regionals vote NO, there will always be another carrier (even a new one) that will fly for these wages. To be perfectly honest, do you really think that the mainlines couldn't find a whole new set of pilots willing to work for $150k/year. Be serious... Its a losing proposition that started way before most of us even started thinking of flying commercially.

The bottom line is that there are 12,000 pilots willing to work for regional pay right now and there always will be as long as the mainlines are paying so much more. Regionals will never be unified and even if they were, it would be incentive for someone to establish a new regional with lower wages.

There is nothing wrong with making the regionals a career, but realize there is never going to be an incentive for the mainlines to pay more. The die is cast.


There would be "an incentive for mainlines to pay more" if you and others that are trying to get into the regionals, would refuse to consider employment at the worst regionals(especially the ones that just voted in concessions during a time of record profits)! If they couldn't staff at the bottom feeders then they would have no choice but to offer better pay and benefits to keep the A/C flying!
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:13 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Is offline View Post
Pilot pay is less than 1% of operating cost, but why would the airlines raise pay when pilot groups are taking pay cuts to get new aircraft. At some point pilots are really going to have to question their choices. I don't know about you all, but my time is worth a lot more than what we are paid.
Pilot costs are 7 to 10% of the total cost to operate most major airlines. I gave no idea where you came up with 1%.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:17 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Fopuddle View Post
Fine... Double perdiem then. It's tax free.
Not true. Talk to a accountant. If per Diem exceeds reasonable amounts it will be treated as income.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:19 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Paid2fly View Post
There would be "an incentive for mainlines to pay more" if you and others that are trying to get into the regionals, would refuse to consider employment at the worst regionals(especially the ones that just voted in concessions during a time of record profits)! If they couldn't staff at the bottom feeders then they would have no choice but to offer better pay and benefits to keep the A/C flying!
OK, so you are saying for an outsider (i.e. me) looking to get into the industry now... I go to APC and look up first year FO pay and see a range of $22-$26/hr and a cap of $37-$49 (usually somewhere around 7-8 yrs, and only AWAC and SKW are over $44). Per diem is within a few cents (not breaking the bank). Even SKW doesn’t really break out from PSA until year six. (TBH, I won’t be in the 121 world if it takes me six years to upgrade, my earning potential is much higher on the outside, BUT I love to fly!)

PSA is in the middle of both ranges and is in a base that was tailor made for my family situation. How am I supposed to know anything about a vote that happened way before I got there, to vote in a contract that isn’t significantly different from the 'best' regional contract? You realize that by the time I walk through the door (even if they would hire me) 50-60% (or more) of the guys/gals that voted in the contract will have moved on.

Like I said, I know it’s a hot topic and an emotional one. BUT…There are a ton of people willing to work for regional wages, BECAUSE mainline pay is so high. It is too big of a carrot. AND… You can’t ask a new pilot (i.e. CFI) to pass up a job offer with a quick upgrade in lieu of MAYBE getting hired to a regional with a stagnant upgrade just so he/she can show camaraderie with a group of guys he isn't part of yet and doesn't know. Especially if he has a wife to provide for and a baby to feed.

I'll tell you now, I am sure I would love having a beer with 99% of you guys and I will bust my rear for any company that will hire me, but my wife and children will ALWAYS be my first priority and should be yours too. Feel free to vote yes/no/maybe/abstain for anything that will not cause your children to go hungry, but you can’t ask someone else's children to skip a meal so that your check stays the same. Even if he/she did, someone will come along and take food off of both of your tables in hopes of getting your spot with mainline.
Wanna fix it? Create a single union and standard contract. Barring that, there isn’t an incentive to bring up pay because there is always a company (maybe one that doesn’t even exist yet) that will undercut everyone else to get the routes (and the mainlines will use them because it saves them money).
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