The Regional Poverty Churn
09-21-2014, 08:14 AM
#41
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
Posts: 1,167
Comical,
You are arguing mainline vs regional, its like the difference between stripes and spots. Piloting a jet, is piloting a jet, the difference is in the pay for regionals vs majors. Its money, pure and simple. There is a reason that allowed the British Empire to control India with 3000 officers, the caste system.
You are arguing mainline vs regional, its like the difference between stripes and spots. Piloting a jet, is piloting a jet, the difference is in the pay for regionals vs majors. Its money, pure and simple. There is a reason that allowed the British Empire to control India with 3000 officers, the caste system.
09-21-2014, 08:36 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom
Comical,
You are arguing mainline vs regional, its like the difference between stripes and spots. Piloting a jet, is piloting a jet, the difference is in the pay for regionals vs majors. Its money, pure and simple. There is a reason that allowed the British Empire to control India with 3000 officers, the caste system.
You are arguing mainline vs regional, its like the difference between stripes and spots. Piloting a jet, is piloting a jet, the difference is in the pay for regionals vs majors. Its money, pure and simple. There is a reason that allowed the British Empire to control India with 3000 officers, the caste system.
09-22-2014, 05:40 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Left seat of a Jet
Posts: 514
Originally Posted by rickair7777
The regional model functions EXACTLY the way it is supposed to!
NOBODY cares about the "profession" at the regional level, not management, not unions, not the government.
Management is happy as long as planes fly, costs are low, and nobody crashes.
Government is happy as long as ticket prices are low and nobody crashes.
Unions are happy as long as their REAL constituents (wide-body CA's) don't have to take pay cuts to subsidize regional pilots.
The underlying enabler of all this is the longevity pay scale...naive people are willing to come to work for poverty wages (or even migrant farm worker wages) on the premise that a few years down the road they'll be making $70K and before long $100K. Of course management uses whipsaw, BK, COMAIR, etc to shuffle airplanes around, ensuring that anyone pursuing a regional "career" will start over at $20K every few years. The longevity scale is the bait and switch of this con that keeps the suckers coming back again and again!
The only possible way regional pilots "might" have a shot at mitigating this issue is to collectively reject the longevity scale and set an industry standard pay for each equipment/seat. Don't get me wrong, there would still be seniority since that would determine equipment, upgrades, schedule, vacation, etc. But having a flat payscale would remove the incentive to move planes (and pilots) between regionals...that would just incur training costs with no savings on pilot pay. The challenge of course would be implementing this as managers and senior lifer CA's would resist since you'd have to "lop off" the high end of the pay scale to balance raising the low end. It would also have to be coordinated industry-wide, which would be real hard with certain pilot groups signing decades-long contracts which essentially screws future pilots who are still in grade school.
Regionals are not a game you can win, or even break even...it's rigged heavily in the house's favor. If you have independent financial means, a regional job might provide a fun hobby and flexible life-style while giving the appearance of being a productive member of society.
NOBODY cares about the "profession" at the regional level, not management, not unions, not the government.
Management is happy as long as planes fly, costs are low, and nobody crashes.
Government is happy as long as ticket prices are low and nobody crashes.
Unions are happy as long as their REAL constituents (wide-body CA's) don't have to take pay cuts to subsidize regional pilots.
The underlying enabler of all this is the longevity pay scale...naive people are willing to come to work for poverty wages (or even migrant farm worker wages) on the premise that a few years down the road they'll be making $70K and before long $100K. Of course management uses whipsaw, BK, COMAIR, etc to shuffle airplanes around, ensuring that anyone pursuing a regional "career" will start over at $20K every few years. The longevity scale is the bait and switch of this con that keeps the suckers coming back again and again!
The only possible way regional pilots "might" have a shot at mitigating this issue is to collectively reject the longevity scale and set an industry standard pay for each equipment/seat. Don't get me wrong, there would still be seniority since that would determine equipment, upgrades, schedule, vacation, etc. But having a flat payscale would remove the incentive to move planes (and pilots) between regionals...that would just incur training costs with no savings on pilot pay. The challenge of course would be implementing this as managers and senior lifer CA's would resist since you'd have to "lop off" the high end of the pay scale to balance raising the low end. It would also have to be coordinated industry-wide, which would be real hard with certain pilot groups signing decades-long contracts which essentially screws future pilots who are still in grade school.
Regionals are not a game you can win, or even break even...it's rigged heavily in the house's favor. If you have independent financial means, a regional job might provide a fun hobby and flexible life-style while giving the appearance of being a productive member of society.
09-22-2014, 05:58 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 547
Rick got it right - I have been saying for years that the longevity payscale - initiated by Frank Lorenzo btw is the bane of the regional industry. No one listened. Once the airline gets to a certain level of senior pilots the cry about costs and SHUT the operation down to start another.
If anyone can explain the difference in tasks that a 3 yr pilot and an 18 yr pilot - I'm all ears. I would argue that the 3 yr reserve is getting his butt kicked daily while the 18 yr guy is living the dream.
Whenever I discuss this concept I always get a deer in the headlights look and ALPA does nothing innovative but trudge along with status quo.
It's an old decadent organization that needs to be replaced with new blood.
While we are on the subject - RLA was crafted when workers had control of the workplace assets.
Now holding companies move the assets from property to property circumventing RLA. Think ALPA gives a rip? You would be wrong. Just make sure you get that dues checkoff box filled in.
If anyone can explain the difference in tasks that a 3 yr pilot and an 18 yr pilot - I'm all ears. I would argue that the 3 yr reserve is getting his butt kicked daily while the 18 yr guy is living the dream.
Whenever I discuss this concept I always get a deer in the headlights look and ALPA does nothing innovative but trudge along with status quo.
It's an old decadent organization that needs to be replaced with new blood.
While we are on the subject - RLA was crafted when workers had control of the workplace assets.
Now holding companies move the assets from property to property circumventing RLA. Think ALPA gives a rip? You would be wrong. Just make sure you get that dues checkoff box filled in.
09-22-2014, 06:09 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 547
One more thing, when ALPA was formed the nonunion mail pilots avg was $200/month while the ALPA pilots got $800/month. That is what you expect with union scales.
Fast forward today. ALPA is a tool to artificially create LOWER than market rates. Proof - look at all the regional FO's leaving. ALL of the ones I see are going to jobs, flying and nonflying that pay more than get at the regional. The market place is screaming that the retention factor for FO's is not there.
CA's are enticed to stay for Rick's reasons but FO's will chase a quick upgrade OR promised flow.
Which brings up a final point - FLOWTHROUGH models are pilot retention tools not cost alleviating tools. They market them as cost reducers to the naïve but the real purpose is to get pilots to stay in poverty bypassing the career expectations enjoyed by nonflying peers to one day enjoy that juicy carrot. Rant over
Fast forward today. ALPA is a tool to artificially create LOWER than market rates. Proof - look at all the regional FO's leaving. ALL of the ones I see are going to jobs, flying and nonflying that pay more than get at the regional. The market place is screaming that the retention factor for FO's is not there.
CA's are enticed to stay for Rick's reasons but FO's will chase a quick upgrade OR promised flow.
Which brings up a final point - FLOWTHROUGH models are pilot retention tools not cost alleviating tools. They market them as cost reducers to the naïve but the real purpose is to get pilots to stay in poverty bypassing the career expectations enjoyed by nonflying peers to one day enjoy that juicy carrot. Rant over
09-22-2014, 10:32 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by Spoiler
One more thing, when ALPA was formed the nonunion mail pilots avg was $200/month while the ALPA pilots got $800/month. That is what you expect with union scales.
Fast forward today. ALPA is a tool to artificially create LOWER than market rates. Proof - look at all the regional FO's leaving. ALL of the ones I see are going to jobs, flying and nonflying that pay more than get at the regional. The market place is screaming that the retention factor for FO's is not there.
CA's are enticed to stay for Rick's reasons but FO's will chase a quick upgrade OR promised flow.
Which brings up a final point - FLOWTHROUGH models are pilot retention tools not cost alleviating tools. They market them as cost reducers to the naïve but the real purpose is to get pilots to stay in poverty bypassing the career expectations enjoyed by nonflying peers to one day enjoy that juicy carrot. Rant over
Fast forward today. ALPA is a tool to artificially create LOWER than market rates. Proof - look at all the regional FO's leaving. ALL of the ones I see are going to jobs, flying and nonflying that pay more than get at the regional. The market place is screaming that the retention factor for FO's is not there.
CA's are enticed to stay for Rick's reasons but FO's will chase a quick upgrade OR promised flow.
Which brings up a final point - FLOWTHROUGH models are pilot retention tools not cost alleviating tools. They market them as cost reducers to the naïve but the real purpose is to get pilots to stay in poverty bypassing the career expectations enjoyed by nonflying peers to one day enjoy that juicy carrot. Rant over
Alpa simply doesn't represent regional pilots directly is the issue. It's more like they are saying "we represent you by proxy, so when you finally get here things will be good". They will be happy to take your dues, but anything they do is only for the benefit of major airline pilots.
But, since regional pilots have:
1.) Decided to accept employment for low wage
2.) Allow alpa to represent them
3.) Decide to allow concessionary working conditions
4.) Accept payrates on discarded scope from major airlines
What can alpa really do for you? What do you want alpa to do?
Alpa doesn't seem to want to get directly involved. The moment someone decided a regional airline could be a place to make a career, alpa became a conflict of interest.
09-22-2014, 02:04 PM
#47
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Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: First Officer
Posts: 121
It really only has to do with first officers. I don't see any reason for any captain to complain about pay unless that captain is at Great lakes or another tiny regional where all the pay is super low. If you make anything over $50k, good for you. Enjoy your life and be content. The fight should be for First Officers or anyone making less than that. Basically, pay for first officers should be what we concentrate on. Captains are doing just fine.
09-22-2014, 03:47 PM
#48
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Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by blaine
It really only has to do with first officers. I don't see any reason for any captain to complain about pay unless that captain is at Great lakes or another tiny regional where all the pay is super low. If you make anything over $50k, good for you. Enjoy your life and be content. The fight should be for First Officers or anyone making less than that. Basically, pay for first officers should be what we concentrate on. Captains are doing just fine.
09-22-2014, 09:01 PM
#49
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by blaine
It really only has to do with first officers. I don't see any reason for any captain to complain about pay unless that captain is at Great lakes or another tiny regional where all the pay is super low. If you make anything over $50k, good for you. Enjoy your life and be content. The fight should be for First Officers or anyone making less than that. Basically, pay for first officers should be what we concentrate on. Captains are doing just fine.
09-22-2014, 11:53 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Sleeping
Posts: 1,036
Originally Posted by blaine
It really only has to do with first officers. I don't see any reason for any captain to complain about pay unless that captain is at Great lakes or another tiny regional where all the pay is super low. If you make anything over $50k, good for you. Enjoy your life and be content. The fight should be for First Officers or anyone making less than that. Basically, pay for first officers should be what we concentrate on. Captains are doing just fine.
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