STOP the lateral moves!
 

Can't you see that the Legacies bank on your hasty moves? XJT planes to TSA, Envoy's to PSA, now Endeavor's to SkyWest and perhaps AWAC. This is designed for you to jump ship to another carrier, stay cheap and even fly the same routes. FOs flock under false hopes of a quick upgrade. Perhaps some may get it, but who's gonna be your FO? There's no way PSA will staff the infusion of 77 RJs even if all of 9E's FOs bail.

Stay where you're at until you move up, let the system crumble, and for f@&$ sakes let the legacies fix this.

Word! Tsa is not getting as many as you think. Were losing planes too. Unless you won't have to commute anymore, statistically doing a lateral is a bad move.

Good post, at 9E there have been many 7+ year FO's bailing to start at the bottom of PSA or compass. Might have been a good move a year ago, but now, PSA and compass will soon have the same problem 9E is having = hiring new pilots and those FOs leaving now will be stuck yet again at the bottom of another regionals seniority list. FOs leaving for allegiance, spirit, JetBlue or any other LCC makes sense, but leaving 7 years of seniority to start at the bottom of another regional, just doesn't make much sense. I get 9E is not the ideal place to work right now, but we have approx 70 CA waiting for a class date at Delta and many others leaving to United, and AA soon. Guys have stuck around and dedicated their time to 9E during the stagnation years, why bail now when the attrition years have just started?

How many do you think they are getting? Other than intuition, what's your source?

Sounds good, but this will never happen. Most people are not going to stay when it looks like their company is going out of business, especially while others are going to theses companies and moving ahead in their careers.

All this pilot unity stuff sounds good but at the end of the day, we are all still competing against each other for jobs beyond the regional level. So it's all about who can get in get their time and get out the fastest, at least that's how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately, for many, the regionals have become a career, and the problem with that is, when it's your companies turn to ride the bottom of the whipsaw wave, after you've invested 10+ years in a place, you start at the bottom again, unless you get hired by mainline.

Things working against us:

1. There are still way more applicants than there are mainline jobs. And we all need that turbine time.

2. Outside of aviation, unless you have a degree or skill in something else, a pilot is an unskilled laborer. This makes starting over, and going through first year pay all over again more attractive than say working retail.

3. Our unions are held hostage by this railroad act, and mgt can drag negotiations out, instead of bargaining in good faith. Mean while they get richer, while we're stuck with the same crap wages and rules. 8 years to negotiate is just ridiculous. I mean this is the first thing that needs to be fixed in my opinion.


Management knows this and will use it against us. Things are getting better now because the pilot supply is thinking a bit. But should that change, it won't be long before a new regional comes in to undercut.

Simple, the EtD; We get hundreds of apps here at 9E, but only single digits actually make it to class.

Bingo. I'm tired of people telling me what I should do/have done with my career.

I'm not going to stagnate my career for the 'greater good.' I want to get hired at a major carrier ASAP, not 10 years from now. Is the 'greater good' going to pay my bills? Is the 'greater good' going to make up the $250,000 difference in my 401K in 40 years? Is the 'greater good' going to get me Christmas off 10 years from now so I can spend it with my family because my seniority won't hold it as a new hire at mainline?

I think going to PSA is a scummy move, but those guys are going to have a job at United/Delta/AA before the FOs who sit at XJT/AE/9E. That's just the facts.

At the end of the day people are going to make the right choices for their family. We should support them making the right choices for their situation.

Also, consider this:
- we had several FO's at Comair jump ship before it was clear that Comair was going out of business (going to 9E, compass, etc) for a faster upgrade. It turned out to be a really great lateral move.

-If I was a 1-4 year FO at a regional that I wasn't thrilled with and I lived in CLT, I would go to PSA in a heartbeat. Even if the upgrade didn't come, the QOL bump from not commuting would make it worth it, for me.

I understand this is a touchy subject for everyone right now, but everyone's situation is different.

Well said!

I'm on board with this.
This, too.
But this is a major problem! I know of one really great guy who was turned away on the second day-pysch test day. I can't imagine what the heck was the reason for the "no." I don't know how a regional can expect to shoot down something close to around literally 95% of applicants and stay in business. I don't see how this is the current Endeavor pilot group's fault, as mangment has said (heard it with my own ears.)

7 years of longevity at 9E means nothing, you could have better seniority and the same paycheck at year two at some of the regionals hiring now, with a great chance of upgrade. If you are an FO at pinnacle you will never upgrade, there are enough captain lifers for every single left seat. The risk of staying outweighs the risk of going, as has been the case for years now.

Gentlemen, put your effort into an LCC not turbine pic.

Don't bank on unity and don't be a pawn.

http://troll.me/images/jackie-chan-w...ad-explode.jpg

You're so far off in left field I don't even know where to start. You're an idealist and not a realist. The regional industry won't be fixed by mainline. The regionals are a place to get in to and then get out of ASAP. If I am going to gain PIC time, have better work rules, better QOL and a better paycheck at XYZ airline vs staying at 123 airline then I'm going to XYZ airline. You're giving the mainline carriers too much credit if you think their goal is to make sure you keep making lateral moves. That's a by-product of their goals.

Why?


This:
-If I was a 1-4 year FO at a regional that I wasn't thrilled with and I lived in CLT, I would go to PSA in a heartbeat. Even if the upgrade didn't come, the QOL bump from not commuting would make it worth it, for me.

You might be right, be right now those are far from facts. At this point no one has any idea who is going to get to the big boys first. This isn't about the greater good either, this is about people who jumped ship from Eagle to go to XJ who now are jumping ship to Compass -- the whole time they were telling themselves the same thing you are. For everyone person where a lateral move seemed to work out there are 5 other people who would be much further along in their career if they had just stayed put. But hey, if you want to offer your services and experience at year one regional pay 3 different times go ahead, I'm sure United/Delta/AA are happy that you are willing to make that sacrifice for their bottom line.

Are you sure of those numbers? They use AirlineApps so there is no way to tell how many real applications they are getting. The few days after the EtD was announced they had around 100ish applications submitted, soon after the numbers went right back down to normal. I doubt more than half of those really intended to show up for the interview, probably only about 20 of them really intended to show up. They have offered 21 people positions but only a handful of people have accepted. Right now there is no reason for people to come interview and there is no reason for people to stay. If that doesn't change by summer then 9E will shutdown.

So far I am at 50/50, cray cray and spot on. Thanks, folks. I guess that is much to be expected. Nothing is certain until we have all ****t off to the majors; those evil summ*****es that we all want to be a part of.

All I can say is for those that say jumping around is ok because it will get them to a Major faster make sure you never complain about someone who votes in concessions.

@Tallflyer

-you in groundschool at your 4th regional yet?

7th actually, I'm on a roll!

Much of this whipsaw would be stopped if idiots would quit chasing the planes.

I find it hilarious that a FO that leaves XJT to go to Mesa to chase an upgrade and yet bashes the Endeavor people for their bankruptcy contract comes on here and preaches this.

This is a dumb thread. Guys leave XJT, 9E and Envoy for a variety of reasons. Some do it to chase the upgrade but most do it because their quality of life is terrible and they are losing relative seniority as the list shrinks from the bottom up. Why sit there and take a beating (some people like to be beat though and then say they deserve it) when there are better opportunities out there that will greatly improve QOL and increase your pay and hopefully one day upgrade. Heaven forbid a 7-8 year FO at 9E wanting to progress his career by moving on to something better.
Maybe I"m in the minority of thinking that I should improve my QOL and work on progressing my career goals. I won't sit here and "take one for the team", make my family suffer and get bogged down because you don't think I should improve my livelihood.
Those of you who don't understand this mentality are more than likely super senior FOs who have great QOL or are captains who have no room to complain.

Do what works best for you and your family. That is what matters. If that means you need to make a lateral move, then do so.

Did you vote for the bankruptcy contract at 9E?

What is that 7 years of seniority really even worth? I had 6 at Comair and only about 10 guys junior to me when we turned the lights off. I have been an my present company for 3 weeks and I already have 40ish.

It would be nice if there was a national pilot seniority list from day 1 of working at a Part 121 carrier... The lateral moves are definitely a role in keeping ticket prices cheap, but also the concessionary contracts being voted in feeding lateral moves... Like everyone says, pilots are their own worst enemies...

This is exactly why it is the same as a pilot voting in concessions to save their job. Those Pilots are making a decisions purely based on how it will affect them not the industry. And a lot of people say it is ok because it has become pretty normal to chase the planes. This is why mainline management knows that all they have to do is shift flying to a new carrier and they get what they want. Just think if all of us didn’t chase the planes. They would lose power to keep shoving the contracts down our throat. They know they can throw the planes somewhere cheap and pilots will follow.

Almost right, everything you do gives an indication as to ones true character. So the guy who hops from job to job chasing that elusive upgrade, just might be looked at in a different light. 1000 PIC isn't very much time to get ones chops together, what a year and a half or two? Appearing to be running willynilly from job to job might not be the appearance one would like to be presenting. A career job is more than minimum checks in boxes on an application.

^^^^^what he said.
Additionally, one seniority list for the regionals.

I'd be curious to know how many PSA and PDT guys have moved onto the majors in the past year. Any of them want to chime in? Selling out the entire industry looks kinda bad on the resume! 121 PIC time can't fix that.

Do majors care about the regional games?....serious question.
I can't see the interviewing team caring, unless a former Eagle pilot or the alike is on there.

Every time I jumpseating on mainline metal....Ahhh Ohhh what are you flying over there at XYZ?

No they don't... They care about what they are screening for on your interview date.. Might be 4 military, 5 corporate, 6 masters degrees... Etc.. They don't care.. It's about HR and tax breaks.

From talking around, they absolutely do care. The ones who aren't all that familiar are the guys who are either close to retirement or prior mil with no connection to the regional industry.

The bottom-feeder's undercutting is starting to affect them directly as well now. Take a look at the recent proposal to APA. Of course Parker and co. are going to look to outsource as much as possible. Their cheap regional feed just got that much more cheaper!

The laws of supply and demand say that more jobs should be returning to mainline in the near future. When you have companies such as PSA and PDT willing to work for less for their own short-term gain, those mainline jobs start to disappear (just as AAG is trying to do now.) Do you really think AA, UA, and DAL pilots are oblivious to this fact?

All I can say is that if you are at one of those bottom-feeders, you better have some damn good connections. Otherwise, enjoy your career at the regional level! (Just saying career at the regionals makes me cringe:eek:)

Except that those guys at PSA and Piedmont have preferential interviews. As long as mainline keeps hiring guys from these companies, people will sign up to fly for them. And now, AAG has the salary caps to help control costs.

Geez man, I wish you could hear yourself and how completely nonsensical you sound.

Please enlighten me, which regional IS NOT a bottom feeder?