Bad News at ENY?
 

November 16, 2014

Fellow DFW Pilots,


Negotiations Update

Recently, we received confirmation that AAG has officially withdrawn from this recent round of negotiations with ALPA. No specific explanation was given over AAG’s decision to walk away from the negotiating table, although the Company articulated their offense to a MEC Newsblast that was sent to the pilot group last Wednesday night. We urge everyone to judge the content of that Newsblast for themselves.

Be rest assured that your MEC has worked diligently on the past negotiations. We take this monumental responsibility seriously knowing the extreme importance of the outcome. We also understand that in addition to 2,500 pilots, there are over 11,000 other households counting on Envoy’s survival. Envoy pilots are sincerely interested in the future success of this Company and every member of the MEC is invested and dedicated in working together with the Company to secure a brilliant future for this carrier.

It is truly unfortunate and particularly disappointing that AAG walked away in the middle of negotiations, especially since we were making progress and believed we were relatively close to securing an agreement that the MEC could support. While our counter proposal achieved the economics demanded from the Company, we remained separated on the particulars regarding Fleet Commitment, Flow Through, and protections regarding existing employees for 12/4 Longevity Pay Caps. The Company had regressed in these areas.

Negotiating is typically a delicate dance where either party compromises to satisfy various interests. The Company is asking our pilot group to give up millions in concessions in order to better align our costs with the recent reduction in costs obtained at their other wholly-owned Fee-For-Departure airlines. In return, our pilots have voiced their needs for reasonable, equitable assurances. Our pilots are simply requesting that AAG provide future job security and an opportunity for career progression in return for the sought concessions.

It is important to add that we have learned AAG is likely to make some rather unpleasant announcements affecting Envoy’s upcoming operations. We have not been given specific details about this bad news on the horizon other than these announcements have less to do with negotiations than they do with Envoy’s inability to attract and retain pilots.

We recognize the hardship and stress the pilot group has endured as a result of these year and a half negotiations tacked onto the end of the bankruptcy process. We commend and appreciate your resolve. While it has not been an easy road traveled, we undoubtedly know that your continued professionalism will shine. It is your professionalism that keeps AAG interested in the pilots of Envoy. Please keep in contact with your local representatives and remember that they are listening.

The Company has not indicated if or when they will reengage the Association.



In Unity,


Anyone care to elaborate what the 'Bad News' is?

Good Luck.

There is a thread already for Envoy.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...ntract-14.html

Basically I think the bad news is 145's will be transferred to another carrier. Many believe it will be Piedmont. Then another home will be found for the 175's. Probably PSA or more for Compass or Republic.
Probably shrink Envoy even more then actually merge them with one of the other two WO'ed.

Sounds like that means Parker and Glass did a "bait and switch" to fleece PDT pilots into inking a deal thinking they'd get E-175's when in reality they'll just get Envoys sloppy seconds.

LOL !!!

That's going to upset the senior lifers at PDT who were lying in bed fantasizing about wrapping up their careers on new E-175's. :rolleyes:

What? Amazing flow to AA isn't attracting enough pilots to Eagle? Ha! The secret has been out for a decade. Flow throughs benefit the top 10% and usually aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Of course no one is going to go to Eagle. But then again I would assume the same thing for those other airlines that took concessions but guess I was wrong about them so who knows...

I realize that this is not exactly a material fact, but Bedford has stated several times that Republic is not bidding on any more AA 175s.

(now watch: an announcement making me a liar will be made tomorrow)

Dude I don't know what planet your from. But all our senior guys aren't going to fly 175's. Many of our senior lifers have changed teams and have flown to AA and are flying an Airbus now.

PDT has movement now and most PDT people could care less about any 145's.

That's even worse. The senior lifers agreed to the bait and switch knowing they'd split leaving those more junior to potentially get stuck flying banged up old 145's that pay less then 175's and for a long, long time should AA stop hiring (which means other legacies likely have too).

Sounds like chickens coming home to roost, if not now, then possibly very soon. I'd be holding my breath, if I was you. ;)

Doesn't that sound like what's always gone on at the regional level? And with the retirements of both US Airways and American I don't see hiring stopping at all over the next 10 years.

Along with many lifers leaving the same amount are staying. Mostly the guys with less then 5 years. They will be able to Retire at Piedmont since it's one of the few Regionals that has a retirement.

Now many of our 5-7 year FO's are upgrading. We don't have people jumping ship anymore. Our contract doesn't change until we get 145's or 175's. And like I said we could care less now! The Dash is a fun plane to fly and we have movement for the first time in like 10 years.

Kinda nice.

Seriously , you can bash all you want about Pdt...Our NC during roadshow clearly told us that our contract will most likely be for 50 seater. In addition, you really think we passed our contract so we can fly 175s? Lol.

I don't get agreeing to concessions when your company is profitable. Why do pilots do that? Scared?

If you're at mainline, I would agree with your statement. If you're one of the regional out there who serve simply as contractor, not so much.
Working at one of the WO doesn't mean a thing to AAG in terms of sharing the prosperity. We have to compete with every single regional out there who are trying to outbid the flying. Try go to republic and see if they get a big raise just because delta, AAG and United are making record profits.
Not trying to change anyone's view, these are just my opinion.

It is ridiculous to think that you should be paid more just because the company is profitable. Would the receptionist, or janitor, or electrician expect these things? Pilots are not special. At the regional level, we are just another contract employee.

I understand the romance of "holding the line", but it doesn't work that way. You eat the crap that they put in front of you, and you move on. That is how it works. If you do not like the benefits and pay that a job offer, do not take the job. It drives me crazy when people go to work at a company, and try to change the company to meet their needs. It doesn't work that way. If the company wants to change the benefits and pay, then you need to leave and go elsewhere if you do not like the changes.

Not understanding you...should I be mad or something? We don't care what we fly...keep your jets. That way I can keep enjoying my contract as is, and enjoy my flow ;) Long live the Dash!

How many flow slots does PDT have?
The movement must be glacial.
If the APA caves on scope there could be 100's of RJ's coming the regional way; thereby comprising an even larger portion of the domestic route structure. With people willing to fly them at a max. pay of $93, I would bet that would have a definite effect on AAG's hiring. At least on the legacy side.

Considering we only have over 300 pilots its 3 a month however they are allowing and hiring outside the flow. Piedmont has been shrinking and stagnant for the last 10 years. Going from 110 planes down to 38. If we double our fleet the flow increases. Believe me we were already the "dead man walking." New TA atleast breathed new life into a dying airline.

Rumor is Tsa got some AA flying. Waiting on announcement.

No way, they'll be lucky to staff the new united flying

Might as well throw Mesa in bidding for them AA EJETs.

By the same logic, it would be ridiculous to think that management would expect a pilot group to take concessions when a company is not profitable. However, that has occurred on several occasions.

The problem with your statement about moving on is that it's not happening or at least it hasn't been for the past 10 years.

Regarding pilots being special.....well maybe you're not special but as for the rest of us.....

Leave the company? Really? So the guy who has vested 10 years / is a Captain / makes a decent salary / and has contributed to the success of his company is supposed to pack up his gear and go to another regional? Another regional where his experience does not matter? Another regional where his seniority is lost? Another regional where he will sit reserve in some crappy crashpad for at least 6 months? Another regional where the pilots are treated the same as a FA / ramper / gate agent / etc? Another regional because some guy with a business degree doesn't understand loyalty? I don't think so. I think that guy sticks it out at his current company, does everything he can to make it better for himself and those who follow. I think that guy hangs on until he is magically swept up to the heavenly grounds of the Majors. That guy is not leaving......BUD!

That is how every other industry works, why should the airlines be different? If I have a plumbing business, or a restaurant, or any other business, I can choose to cut the benefits of employees if I want to. They can leave then if they want to. That is how the real world works.

The trick is that most companies do not want to lose their employees. It takes time and money to train new employees, and takes months if not years to get them up to the level of my current employees. What makes the airlines different is the whole seniority thing. I understand that you think that it is different based on seniority, but you CHOSE to become a pilot and work in a profession which places such a huge value on seniority. Once you took the job, with the understanding of how the system worked, you accepted it. Complaining about it after the fact is like buying a car and then complaining to the dealer that it is red. You bought it, it is not their fault.

I'm not complaining Ace. I'm simply stating you have a very simplistic view. The system is rigged to the company's favor and there is nothing WE can do about it. Your attempting to use a metaphor that does not fit. This industry is like no other (maybe the railroad: Railroad Labor Act of 1926). Go figure that one out.
I would suggest to you that any airline (major or regional) would be happy to lose an employee especially a senior pilot and replace them with a more junior one. I would also submit for your consideration the fact that it is not the individual companies that are terribly skewed in management's favor but the entire industry.
I am not a US vs Management guy, but I am a realist. I do believe that an individual should be given a wage that is commensurate with the responsibility of the position. The issue I take with your stated position is that you seem to believe pilots are just another labor group. Not sure if my assumption is correct?

Pilots are just another labor group. The sooner you realize you're not a special snowflake the happier you'll be.

You're definitely special ;).

I am just saying that when you decided that you wanted to be a pilot, you had to accept the good and the bad. Many pilots take the job, and then try to change it to make it what they want. Sorry.....their airplanes, their rules.

That's true to a certain degree.
But the Eagle guys have a contract that's good for at least a few more years and pilots are in short supply.
Using your example.
Lets say you went to work for a restaurant as a chef.
The hourly rate was set for at least the next few years, even in the face of a chef shortage.
About six months into the gig, you find that the boss is a drunk and his boy toy is a cross dresser.
But when he asks you to take it in a$$; 'cause his other two chefs like it, do you gladly get drunk, don a dress, take it in the can, then get a DUI on the way home as you pass through the school zone?

Above you are flat out wrong
Other jobs for example within the oil industry are paid based on company profitability. If you want to set toilets and be the tyrant at your own fiefdom then fine. But don't go off pontificating about things you know nothing about.

Nope...well, maybe parts of it....but not in a school zone.

I would quit and go to another job. If people did this, and the airlines actually needed pilots, things would change. At the regional level, however, there is not yet a shortage and therefor no pressure on management to increase pay or add benefits.

The problem is that there are too many wanna-be's that would accept any job, no matter the bad parts. At the regional level, this is to be expected. I do not blame anyone that voted yes or no, based on their individual situations. If PDT's contract worked for them, then congratulations to them. If ENY's did not, then the same thing goes. The problem is when one group starts blaming another group. That is childish and counterproductive.

Sure, some jobs are based on profitability. Lawyers are another great example of this.

The airlines are not an industry that currently does. If you want profit sharing, go work in an industry that has profit sharing.

SkyWest??

filler

Some jobs do....but most don't. At my current job, I haven't got a raise in over 4 years. Sure it sucks, but the owner can do what he wants. That's business. I don't know many people in ANY industry that get a raise (besides a standard yearly raise) when the company is more profitable. I know a few people that do, but not many.

Spoiler must be right. He used bigger words than you. Kidding however

Hey rj pilot,

Nice thread title. The answer has always been yes

RJ Pilot. Aren't you happy with your new corp job? Wouldn't you be happy for ENY to succeed even you decided to leave after xx yrs of dedication? If so why are you stirring the pot and creating new ENY threads? If you really want the best for your fellow ENY pilots you shouldn't post like you've been doing lately. Cause I haven't seen anything other than negative posts by you.

Easy there diva. Im very happy where Im at now but still have many good friends at ENY. My advice to you is to get out. IMHO, the NY gang man along with his followers are negotiating in bad faith just to prove a point and beat Glass, something that isn't and aint happening.

Management got tired this time.

Good Luck.

80% of fos were hired 2011 or before. My entire feb 2011 new hire class, is leaving, has a interview somewhere (not regional) or is leaving the industry. This place is about to lose 500 pilots in three months to upward moves or out. I can't wait till this catches up with management and they sit in the mess they are making. Doug and Scott never have been smart enough to be delta mangament and their copy cat scheme will be amazing entertainment when it all falls to shat.

What a freakin pansy/management's wet dream!

How long have you been in management?

Actually several airlines offer profit sharing, are you that uninformed or just trolling?

How many "professions", not just "jobs" have been in a downward spiral of concessions and give backs, year after year? How does one justify spending tens of thousands, or even into six figures to go work for the equivalent of what a minimum wage burger flipper makes? How many professionals that have already taken huge cuts in pay and benefits(only to watch as upper management rewards themselves with tens of millions in bonuses that suck up all those concessionary savings), would expect those same management types to come back for even more concessions,especially when the company is making all time record profits? Add in the mix the fact that the single biggest cost for the airlines(fuel) has been dropping rapidly in price guaranteeing even larger future profits/earnings!