Piedmont only has just over 300 pilots total. It took 6 months to get one third the way through the seniority list. Upgrade is about to drop to 2 years and that's not factoring in if or when we get (which Envoy calls) Envoy's ragged out 145's. The talk was AAG wants the first two on the property by Jan. 2016. Our training department is current recruiting 15 new instructors as we need them for the 145's and many of our instructors have decided to flow to mainline.

So it's hard to tell how long it will take to flow. Probably just about half (or those wanting to flow) of the seniority list might be at Mainline before the first 145's hit the property.

I don't think it will happen (just me I don't believe we see any 145's as a stand alone regional). We will either merge with Envoy or I think they will just fly the Dash's as they time out. With the new flow agreement they know now they will always be able to staff the Dash's. If we just keep flying the Dash 8 as they time out this might be the best option for everyone on the property because they are suppose to be all gone by 2019.

They are taking 3 or more pilots at time to mainline. They are using the flow and pref interviews. Apply and you might get a call. Even had a few FO's get hired with zero PIC time.

Our schedules and outstation bases which make it hard for commuting are our negatives. Plus there's bunch of people that feel flying a turbo prop is beneath them. Some have bashed our training department but the Dash 8 is probably one of the hardest regionals at this time to learn. Good attitude and effort you'll have no problems unless you're total tool box.

Plus is if you get in now you might find it as a fast upgrade and also a fast path to American. But who really knows! One mans trash is another mans treasure.

You think the flow continues if PDT can't recruit and it effects operations?

As long is there's a fast direct link to American Airlines with the flow we will continue to get people. If not they will park planes and probably flow more people.

6 upgrades and 20 new hires for January.

Yeah actually. Also we have been able to get 12-18 per class for the last 6 months or so. Soooo carry on doing whatever it is that you think you're doing.

Battle between the douches....keep it going, this is entertaining. Eventually you dweebs will be working together.

He's hoping to get more of those senior to flow to AA. If he can grease that even a little, it will be "good for me" as he said in the past. He's still very much at Envoy (DFW based EMB captain who lives locally) and he wants more senior Envoy bodies out of his way, but just as importantly more suckers to cushion him below.

No $250K/year GV captain puts so much effort into Envoy on these forums. :rolleyes:

RJ knows that, but this us a great subterfuge for highlighting Envoys flow in the hope of among other things, attracting new-hires. He has a vested interest in maintaining Envoys viability as long as possible (corporate GV pilots don't).

He's not trolling in this thread he's fishing.

Most regionals will have to develop flows of their own to compete in the future. I'd advise against chasing rotting carrots.

The problem is that both are tied to AA hiring. What happens when PBS kicks-in and the divisions are combined ?

A temporary surplus of pilots.

Expect the flow to slow to a trickle or even stop for awhile until AA right sizes staffing. It's another reason I wouldn't chase the stale flow-thru carrot at Envoy. In the past, they told new hires they'd be at AA in 5 years and some are still waiting after twice that long, with likely years to go.

It will be years before the most senior "protected pilot" gets that chance and even if AA is hiring, it likely won't need to be more than 40/month, so that's 20 pilots/month at best. I must say, you're certainly going into overdrive on your sales pitches though.

You don't sell used cars on the side, do you. ?

Sounds like the late 1990's all over again. Parker will not be a parker of airplanes if he can't staff the new 175's. Some are advocating that in the future the only way to get to AA will be through Envoy. I highly doubt that. I wonder what the APA would think about 100% of their new hires coming from Envoy?

Sure thing. Just like why on earth have AA FO's (default to AA via flow) put so much effort on these forums. How was your christmas layover by the way? I bet you had plenty of time to retouch your hair.

GoodLuck.

But you did chase it with your 20+ yrs at eagle. How long it took you?

GoodLuck.

Are you kidding? Most senior Protected PILOT should flow by 2016. For me I should be going in 2018 and I'm in the middle of the protected guys.

Minimum 20 a month for AA for the 824. That will be 20EnY, 4 PSA and 3 PDT a month, the other 13 guys will be off the street.

How about you stop speculating, you're not helping with yor negativity. This is not 1997, unless there's a 9-11 this should be moving and the flow is a plan B for most of us.

Don't waste your breath with eaglefly. You are correct, btw. But eaglefly just wants to spread doom and fear in every Eagle thread.

True, but we need people here. Lets spreed doom and gloom, eagle fly flew for us. Looks like he want to help PSA, PDT and other regionals.

Ohh well...


If someone need info, don't ask here. Go and send a PM to rickt, me or other envoy pilots.

That's what I've been saying. Send us PMs if you are interested in Envoy. I'll be happy to help people get interviews. Eaglefly is just a sad joke. Most other people on this forum just throw rocks like children. I love the people who claim flows don't work because it took so and so who was hired in 1996 X amount of years to flow. They conveniently skip over the fact that 9/11 happened, the airline industry was flipped upside down, and then we had age 65 as the icing.

Yeah let's put PDT at 500 pilots by the time anyone off the street is in class and has a hire date--so as I understand, that'd be about 4 pilots/per month flowing?

Assuming AA hires every single month for the next decade starting January 2015, it'll take a decade for PDT's flow to put seniority #500 in class at AA--and IIRC, voluntary bypass and washouts do count towards the quota.

My main concern at PDT would be: "what if AA just used PDT as pawns to leverage concessions/fear out of Envoy?" Whlie PDT's flow letter remains in force even if they don't get the Embraers, it won't matter if they wind down the Dash-8 program and shut down the company.

Believe me--I looked long and hard at making a lateral transfer to PDT, but I don't think it's worth it to anyone not on property when that agreement was signed (unless you live in one of PDT's outstation bases!).

I don't get your math.

"Probably just about half (or those wanting to flow) of the seniority list might be at Mainline before the first 145's hit the property."

If the 145s hit the property in Jan 2016 (one year from now), and if AA hires every single month in 2015, that's only 3/mo = 36 PDT pilots.

That's 10% of your seniority list at AA by Jan 16th--not half.

How many pilots does Envoy currently have?

about 2350 and decreasing. We used to be 3200 pilot group by the beginning of 2012.

And with the new enhanced flow, Envoy will be the only airline that consistently loses pilots off the top of the list which in turn helps everyone below them. Other Regionals there is no guarantee the people senior to you will move on quickly if at all. Envoy has a guarantee of 20 to 30 per month minimum flowing to AA. Add to that people who leave for other majors or LCCs and you begin to get an idea of the movement you will see at Envoy.

Not to mention, your interview at Envoy is your interview at AA. Once hired you are also hired by AA and can keep that job at AA in your back pocket while applying to Delta or United if you want.

Goes to 4/ month in the fall. Not huge but still an additional 12 / yr. Looks like 50ish guys at the top will bypass til they can collect their pension at 65

This...

I remeber when I was hired in 2010...by summer 2011 I already moved 500 numbers up. Things where moving pretty quick until bankruptcy affected us. I believe we will start seeing the same numbers as far as we get new people.

What will convince new hires to come to Envoy as it continues to shrink faster than new hires come and gummers flow off the top?

Wonder how many CFIs are in the pipeline (ads everywhere, even this thread). I know they have hit the 141 schools hard; students love flight benefits and signing bonuses.

That's an interesting idea... they basically have the cradle to grave system set up - get hired as a pipeline instructor and you are already an AA pilot. Yes there are plenty of loop holes, asterisks, and assumptions not to mention just waiting till your number gets called to flow up to AA. But recruitment will probably push that idea hard - I just wonder how many extra people will bite.

Well it doesn't matter if it shrinks. As far as new hires come down here there will be a lot of movement. We have gummers flowing, jr CAs leaving to LLC, UAL and DAL. It will be a steady movement, also the company already said that if we keep a good staffing the CRJs will leave slower.

Also once they are done with 2008 hires, upgrade time will be down to 2010 hires.

Who offers the best Flow.
 

It's a good deal for new cfi's that have aviation degrees. All benefits like a new hire, also I feel like that's a big chunk of the new pool of pilots and they hit all those schools hard. I was part 61 with a bachelors, it would help if they gave a signing bonus to us instead of just the av degree guys. As of now not that many have signed up though maybe the flow will attract more. I don't know..

No Christmas layover for me and no touch-ups either. I'm sure with your Envoy seniority you had Christmas off too. The only person you're fooling here RJ is yourself.

Now THAT is sad !

Took me too long. Since others will have their own flows soon, why start even more junior at Envoy ?

The only person it might benefit is a senior lifer like you.

Baloney. You're the one who is speculating. I just can't figure out your motive yet. Are you simply a dreamer or in management. Why don't you show us your PROOF, not your assumptions, but your proof !

It seems characters like you always seem to wander in every few years thinking they got it all figured out only to be dashed against the rocks.

No, just being realistic. Hey......if you're at Envoy and you believe in unicorns and rainbows, great ! But leading on others to come to Envoy on assumptions and false hope from executives that have stiffed you for their own interests time and again just because you believe it is bad advice IMO. I'm here to dispute that and if it upsets you, tough petunias. Envoy and Obamacare are identical schemes in that they both require suckers to join at the bottom to support those above whose futures are in the line. No suckers to replace those leaving for AA or elsewhere and Envoy folds right along with your flow-thru dreams.

It makes sense then that young junior dreamers like you and old nags like RJ need fresh gullible bodies. Any lateral move for them will almost certainly not pay off and they'll kick themselves in the long run from ditching their present regional where they're more senior which in the future will likely offer a flow-thru mechanism too.

You've got to be a management lackey. No one else sells this snake oil so desperately. You're practically begging pilots to come to the sinking ship Envoy. Did you help write the ads on this forum ?

Clearly, those junior at Envoy know they need to recruit furlough fodder below them to pad their flow and I must say, you guys are giving it your best.

As someone with 25 years at Eagle and who flowed, I think anyone who signs onto Envoy based on the present promises by them or you are stupid. Hey, a few will be, but most hopefully won't.

All I hear are crickets.. nobody is replying to eaglefly anymore!

This was a good thread, got to explore why the PDT flow is better, but that got answered on page 1!

Well, that's not entirely true. At least ONE person is "replying" to eaglefly. ;)h

It was a thread started to lure pilots to Envoy by a senior Envoy pilot with skin in the game and that's all. He's been notorious is his self-serving misrepresentations in the past. All I'm saying is that if you're at regional X, don't throw your seniority away to come to regional E based on marginal flow-thru promises, especially from dubious characters with questionable motives.

Yeah, like if you're not questionable.

Look, I'm not saying that someone should leave their current regional to come to Envoy. You clearly have rather see others go to PSA than here where you worked for 20sowmthing years.

I'm sorry it didn't worked for you, but this is not 1999 or 2000. We are almost in 2015 and thinga are changing once for good. I'm not saying that someone should come here and wait for the flow. The flow it should be a plan Z. But our contract still good in many things compared with MESA, TSA, RAH and others.

How about you go to the major airlines forum where you should be, and stop playing with the kids? Can't you leave your past airline and move on? I started already my 5th year here and all the time you've been dooming and glooming about AE, Envoy, etc.

Go away man...let it go.

Eaglefly who??

PilotJ3 you've got an awfully optimistic outlook and I hope it works out for you but your numbers are questionable. When I was at Envoy I did a lot of number crunching. I was an early 11' hire and even with this increased flow my upgrade was ~2.5 years off when you take into account the shrinking fleet size. As for the flow I was calculating over 5 years optimistically.

Unless someone lives in Dallas I cannot make a rational argument for employment at Envoy. There are 11,000 apps at United, how many of those applicants only applied at United? My guess is not many. I think you have 12-13k unique apps total between the 3 mainlines. Once hiring is going full bore at all 3 + Southwest, FedEx, and UPS that resume stack is going to shrink quickly. A flow is a nice thing to have as a safety net, and I do believe Envoy's new flow will operate as advertised provided they're able to find new hires, however I don't think a flow should be high on the list of things to consider when seeking regional employment. Eaglefly is correct in saying that other regionals are working on flow deals with mainlines as well.

I would say let the recruitment department sell the airline, you should be focused on updating your app and getting out before your flow number ever comes close to getting called.