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-   -   RAA is trying very hard to rescind ATP rule (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/87864-raa-trying-very-hard-rescind-atp-rule.html)

Fegelein 05-03-2015 11:39 AM


Originally Posted by Slick111 (Post 1872673)
I watched the video from the congressional hearing, (and by the way, Sully was absolutely brilliant), and it occurred to me that NO ONE asked the most important question: "WHY?"

WHY,.......... does that RAA, (and the cowardly regional airline executives hiding behind it) want congress believe that some kind of "structured educational requirement" would serve the nation's airline passengers better than requiring all airline pilots to have Airline Transport Pilot licenses? WHY???

Would anyone care to take a guess? WHY would the RAA (doing the bidding of regional airline management) want to see the 1500 hour/A.T.P. requirement replaced with some kind of heretofore undeveloped, untested, unrecognized "structural educational requirement"?

Because any swinging d$&@ can go to ATP and get an ATP. What's needed is the structured four year degree program in professional aeronautics from established universities like ERAU and UND. Their students have taken classes in advanced avionics, turbine aircraft systems and high altitude and high speed aerodynamics. Plus they will have attended the in house RJ transition course where they will experience CRM and FMS.

CBreezy 05-03-2015 12:00 PM


Originally Posted by Fegelein (Post 1873054)
Because any swinging d$&@ can go to ATP and get an ATP. What's needed is the structured four year degree program in professional aeronautics from established universities like ERAU and UND. Their students have taken classes in advanced avionics, turbine aircraft systems and high altitude and high speed aerodynamics. Plus they will have attended the in house RJ transition course where they will experience CRM and FMS.

I've seen some of the courses at places like ERAU. One whole semester was spent in one course learning how to program an FMS. Yep. That's money well spent there. ERAU aviation science degree is a JOKE.

chazbird 05-03-2015 12:04 PM


Originally Posted by inline five (Post 1873031)
Paying new and even FO's in general such low wages is appalling. It's despicable the union is blocking wage increases for 50% of the pilot group. It's also despicable the senior guys get such large wages while the junior guys get such small ones. Time to condense the pay scales significantly.

No surprise here: when a company owns two certificates (or multiple contracts) it can whipsaw the pilots against each other. When it's done wholly in-house with senior vs junior it's voluntary us vs them economic cannibalism.

deltajuliet 05-03-2015 12:05 PM

Wow, Black is a b****. She just blatantly lied during a Congressional hearing because there's no way she's unaware that Great Lakes FO's make $16k, and there's no way she doesn't know how big the discrepancy between regional and legacy pay is. Isn't perjury a felony?

Grumpyaviator 05-03-2015 12:55 PM


Originally Posted by Fegelein (Post 1873054)
Because any swinging d$&@ can go to ATP and get an ATP. What's needed is the structured four year degree program in professional aeronautics from established universities like ERAU and UND. Their students have taken classes in advanced avionics, turbine aircraft systems and high altitude and high speed aerodynamics. Plus they will have attended the in house RJ transition course where they will experience CRM and FMS.

All that structured formal training and they can't fly a visual approach at 180kts. The education is excellent, but there is no substitute for the basics. That has been the biggest challenge regional training departments.

I'm a believer in the 1500 hour rule, but the quality of pilots has not improved because of it. As a matter of fact it has forced hiring the same pilots that were rejected at 500 hours, but with another 1000 hours of reinforcing their bad habits.

bedrock 05-03-2015 12:56 PM


Originally Posted by deltajuliet (Post 1873065)
Wow, Black is a b****. She just blatantly lied during a Congressional hearing because there's no way she's unaware that Great Lakes FO's make $16k, and there's no way she doesn't know how big the discrepancy between regional and legacy pay is. Isn't perjury a felony?


"I don't recall Senator." worked in Iran-Contra hearing pretty well.

bedrock 05-03-2015 01:03 PM

She's right that structured training needs to improve, but who is going to pay. I remember a check airman told me one of the pilots on IOE tried to forward slip a swept wing jet from a high approach to landing. If the pilot had read "Fly the Wing", Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, or received at least some good training on swept wing aerodynamics, he wouldn't have done this. I've flown with captains who didn't know about coffin corner, or who didn't consider best long range cruise when we encountered strong headwinds aloft.

There is a gap missing in airline training. Most of us go from recips to jets very quickly, with no step in between. Many go from bug smashers to airline training in a couple of days. But what I don't want to see is structured training as code word for a university degree and flying lessons that the govt. and taxpayer are put on the hook for.

RAA wants to offer metered flows and all kinds of candy that they control.

Grumpyaviator 05-03-2015 01:07 PM

Though I like Sully's points, his motivation has always been scope and taking it back from the regionals, under the guise of safety. We want flying to shift back to mainline, but don't exploit safety and 3407 to do it.

BrewCity 05-03-2015 01:22 PM


Originally Posted by Fegelein (Post 1873054)
Because any swinging d$&@ can go to ATP and get an ATP. What's needed is the structured four year degree program in professional aeronautics from established universities like ERAU and UND. Their students have taken classes in advanced avionics, turbine aircraft systems and high altitude and high speed aerodynamics. Plus they will have attended the in house RJ transition course where they will experience CRM and FMS.

The RAA wants something similar - MPL.

seafeye 05-03-2015 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by Fegelein (Post 1873054)
Because any swinging d$&@ can go to ATP and get an ATP. What's needed is the structured four year degree program in professional aeronautics from established universities like ERAU and UND. Their students have taken classes in advanced avionics, turbine aircraft systems and high altitude and high speed aerodynamics. Plus they will have attended the in house RJ transition course where they will experience CRM and FMS.

What people need is a couple of years digging ditches. Learning what it's like to earn a living, working with good and bad bosses. Not sitting in some air conditioned playground that was paid for by mom and dad.


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