Airline Training Wash out rates
 

Wondering what everyone knows? I heard a few months ago PSA had some huge fail numbers, now I heard Air Wisky had a less then 50% pass rate.

Who has the a good pass rate and a good training department? On the other side who else has the high fail out numbers?

I can't see how this helps the "pilot Shortage". :confused:

People have said that on here about all of the regionals.

The truth is that the high fail rates are more fiction than anything. Pilots need other new pilots to join their airline in order to fill seats for growth and attrition. One way on ensuring this is to talk badly about the other airlines. The fact is that they are all about the same. Some pay a little more money, but have a much crappier quality of life. Others pay a couple of dollars less, but the quality of life is much better. In the end, none of they are great.

The trick is to find one that offers you what you are looking for. Live in base, don't commute, and go somewhere with flexibility and growth.

All I can speak for is my own class... 14 started and we picked up a guy coming off of mil leave in systems class. Of those 15, 12 are through training successfully. One went to a cargo outfit prior to sims and two didn't make it through training.

So... Looks like 85.7% (12 of 14 who attempted sims) of my class made it. Some needed extra training, but the company did its part in helping people who were putting forth effort...

Pretty sure the abysmal numbers are for guys making it through without needing any extra training along the way.

I've been in two shops and two initial training programs. The first one had something like 30 people and only 1 washed out. The second carrier had 15 and, again, we lost only one.

Xjt has a great training department. My new hire class of 17 two years ago, everyone made it through.

No one failed any check rides in my class at whisky. Only one needed extra training out of a class of 9, 3 quit though

No regional today intentionally forces a high washout rate among their new hires. Every now and then a class will randomly be made up of a group of losers, but that's a statistical anomaly. The problem is that one class's washout rate magically becomes the washout rate for the whole airline. Today it's a buyers market, so the mere fact that you chose to go to XYZ regional means they are going to do everything they can do to keep you. Rather than wash out a high percentage of candidates, I'd say the opposite is more of a concern - pushing people through who might not cut it otherwise.

Basically, to survive airline training, study hard (i.e. don't go out drinking every night), show up with a willingness to learn, and have a good attitude. They're going to spoon-feed you basically everything you'll need to know. As long as you are showing progress and have a good attitude they'll give you some extra training if you need it.

If you do wash out, it's mainly for two reasons. One is attitude. Even if you might make it through with some extra training, they'll be much less likely to give it to you if you've been a douche the whole time. The second is simply poor flying/multitasking/decision making skills, and that reflects on a lack of experience.

If you're head is screwed on straight, you're a nice guy/gal, and you're a halfway decent stick, you'll have no problems passing any airline's training program.

At MESA early 2014 out of 22 one guy failed his checkride and passed on the second try. And I think 2 needed extra Sim before the checkride but passes first time. No one failed the oral or IOE.

My class had 25 newhires. Two quit during indoc because better job offers came through. Three failed training: 1 high-ranking Air Force pilot, (retired), 1 guy with a lot of international heavy-jet experience (but low on motivation), and 1 CFI. So that's a 14% failure rate, but prior experience was not the leading cause of failure.

Get up, dress up, show up, study hard, be receptive, and be nice. That's the recipe for success at the airlines,........... just like it is for every other professional job.

There you have it in a nutshell.

Lurker here.

I can't speak for the regionals, but at my current airline (a 121 heavy jet charter) we've got about a 40% washout rate right now. I'm not sure what the problem is exactly as our training program is pretty good and the planes are honestly pretty "easy" to handle for anyone with some jet experience.

My speculation and that of some instructors I've talked it over with is just the quality of the candidates is decreasing. It's safe to say we should expect more of that everywhere as the pool of pilots looking for jobs keeps getting less experienced and the airlines have to reach deeper for bodies to fill the positions.

I wouldn't let these sorts of things worry anyone coming to the airlines though. If you're a CFI or whatever and competent and study you'll be just fine learning to fly an RJ. Just be sure you are confident and comfortable in whatever you fly now and you'll know you're ready to move to the next level. Even the cruddiest 121 training program is designed to help you pass and no airline would hire you so they can waste the cash to wash you out.

Good luck!

This is spot on. Not much to worry about if you put it the effort.

The ones that had problems are the ones you knew would have problems from day one. Like they say, it's all about attitude. Stay out of trouble and study. Also, not all, but older guys and former military guys seem to have trouble mostly because they have the sense of entitlement. If you come with that, or act like a A hole, they will make it hard on you. Also it's true that they will look the other way now to help you get through if you show willingness to learn and be safe. If you know you're not thr best pilot, this is probably one of the best times in history for you to make it through training at an airline :o

I've heard from several captains this. Military guys seem to have the most trouble. It's their attitude and just how they learned and the tools they had flying is so different from us. Going from a high ranking officer to a first year first officer grunt just doesn't sit well with a lot of people and the crm concept is a lot different, many guys are used to flying and doing everything alone.

I think I know where you work, and that 40% is not a real wash out number. That number is more a function of your management team not giving guys a realistic break down of what garound school and sim will be like. They need to tell guys in the welcome packet that they will be in ground school 6 days a week and will not be able to jumpseat home till after their check ride.

As a sidebar, can we name this company so others can be forewarned?

I think he works for Omni, they are the only company that likes to brag about their wash out rate. Most people are looking at 60-90 days away before they can get back home.

I don't know for sure, but I think the OP isn't yet in a position experience-wise to go to a place like that. I would think he's looking at his first 121 job.

I agree, that's why I wrote more than one sentence that nobody read past apparently...lol My points to OP is, in general 121 carriers want you to pass training, they will give you plenty of opportunity and are making an investment in you from day one you show up in class, so OP shouldn't worry and should get on the regional of his choice (a rare luxury in this career).

I'd call it more *****ing than bragging. There is nothing to brag about here...

And yes, Omni, as a quick glance at my post history will reveal. It's a small airline and I know most of the guys doing the interviewing personally. They don't hide anything about what it will be like. It's no secret you're gone long, and that the training cycle is packed tight, but there is a lot more to this story than having a long work week in training.

We have our own forums now as well which are stickied in the charter section here on APC so hopefully people will come to get some gouge from actual Omni pilots before they accept any job offer. We literally have guys leaving to the regionals right now who have been here 3-5 years.

Additionally, the only reason it would run more than 6-8 weeks like anywhere else is because sim availability changes a lot now last minute (we lease time from DL and UAL) or because a person needs extra training. I've got a few close friends who are sim instructors and I tell ya man....the latter is quite common for whatever reason.

In conclusion, there is no reason to come work here right now when the regionals are offering good bonuses and relatively rapid upgrades. No 18 day straight reserve, No being gone for 18 days and flying only 10 hours in the month. You'll get a ton of frequent flyer miles though which are better than pass travel! :rolleyes:

I come from a single seat background and this 'crew concept CRM' is about the easiest part of the whole transition. Giving up half of what I used to have to do is not hard. I will admit to still hanging onto the throttle quadrant and the flaps in my mighty KA! :cool:

Going from a *high* ranking officer to a line grunt has also been a huge welcomed relief. JUST flying for the most part? GIVE ME MORE! (Edit - I do still have paperwork, but I don't have 10 additional duties outside of flying).

I dunno, I'm not sure that is an actual representation of former mil pilots at the regional level. Over a third of my class at Whisky was mil of some sort and none are dbags nor feel like they are entitled to anything... May be the case at the majors, don't know because I'm not there, but I don't think there is any higher level of mil guys having problems (flying or personality wise) than anyone else.

Why do these threads even get any attention. Show up, study, fly the plane and you don't "wash out" if you can do the job you are applying for. Such an entitled crowd of people these days. Baby boomer's babies I guess.

So, what's your solution? Lower the standards and let everyone pass regardless of their performance? :rolleyes:

Good grief, most guys don't seek employment as a professional pilot based on who has the lowest wash-out rate. They go where they're hired and they man up, bring their A-game and land the job.

Some peoples brains are not wired to function properly in a jet aircraft, these people cannot be let loose into the working environment, turning the operation into single pilot IFR. People who blame others for their own shortcomings are quickly let go with no second chances. They are not trainable.

I seriously hope you're being extremely facetious. Otherwise here's another participation ribbon.

Haha, that's funny right there, coming from a guy who was a UND instructor just this June, and who only started at a Regional not even two months ago. Have you even finished training yet?

I'll suggest that you keep your uninformed, naive opinions to yourself and learn from the 45+ year old pilots you'll likely fly with who REALLY know their stuff. Most of those guys have been through countless airline training programs on more than a few aircraft types, both as FO's and CA's.

Personally, I'm 51 years old, have flown with the airlines for the past 24 years, have trained on 7 different aircraft while there, to include 3 different turboprops and 4 different jets, and was an IOE Check Airman while at my former Regional. I have 5 type ratings, including all four jets - the last three after age 48. I have never received additional training, nor had an unsat. Ever.

At American Airlines, every Captain I have flown with has been over 48, with most between 53 and 57, and these guys are GREAT pilots. Many came from the Regionals, while others came from the military.

So, your bold pronouncement that the guys who have trouble are those who are over 45 and "only half the men they used to be", is pure bull**** at this level in the game, unless your Regional can't seem to hire any decent pilots over 45.

Manage a four-ship, one guy with an emergency, in the weather and come back to me about CRM.

GF

How about being a mission commander for a Red Flag/Green Flag or any other large force exercise? Leading a 12-ship pond crossing, coordinating tankers/weather/diverts/etc? The list goes on! The false notion that fighter pilots can't understand or execute good CRM always makes me laugh.

Even worse: the guys who are only half the men they never were. :p

Boredum........

Okay, I'm going to let everyone here in on a secret as to who has the biggest washout problem at the average regional:

- The guy who parties his way through training.
- The guy who thinks they will be have their hand held through training. Your job when you show up is to be ready to learn and focus on that task. You'll be presented the information, it's up to you to assimilate it.
- The guy who doesn't bother to study and memorize the callouts, flows, and profiles from day one because they don't make sense. They don't have to, memorize them by rote! Understanding will come in fixed base sim; but you have to KNOW those cold before you start that or you are already behind.
- The guy who doesn't study and prepare for the sim because he's too busy studying for the oral. Yes, you have to pass the oral. You also have to be ready for sim.
- The guy who doesn't actively participate in group study sessions.
- The guy who isn't actively participating and thinking about what's going on when he isn't PF! You have to be learning while you're PM as well (both PM tasks AND absorbing more about what's going on as PF).
- The guy who's fiddling with his phone during the briefing, or even something other than the topic at hand on the iPad or in a manual (if your company still uses paper) not really paying attention. FOCUS on what is being taught at the time, there isn't going to be time to go back over it later. The same applies in the classroom.
- The guy who isn't 200% determined to get through the program no matter what.
- The guy who thinks his previous experience as a ________ means this will be easy.
- The guy who is busy trying to impress the instructor with how much he already knows (this one is usually a younger guy, BTW)
- The guy who won't let go of "this is how we did it at ____________."
- The guy with a poor instrument scan coming in the door.

Don't be that guy.
Tennisguru put it rather well:

All that said, there are some people who have a bit of a tougher row to hoe:
- The guy who needs the sim time to get to ATP mins.
- The 43 year old career changer who has to adapt to a whole new job culture.
- Pilots with who aren't good with rudder control (often, but not always low multi-engine time).
- Those without a decent basic understanding of aerodynamics.
- Pilots with minimal or no time in advanced technology aircraft (G-1000 helps, but is VERY different from an FMS based system - don't count on it to make everything easy for you.

None of this list is insurmountable _IF_ you have a good attitude, and are willing and determined to learn. Combine the items on the first list with the second, and you have a recipe for problems.

I won't be quite as optimistic as to Tennisguru to say you'll have NO problems passing the training program if you follow his advice (emphasis mine). I will say you have VERY good odds of completing the program successfully if you do follow his advice - a subtle difference in approach there.

Attitude and effort go a long, long way. Even if you hit a bump in the road, a good attitude and real effort (it will be noticed - but it has to be there from day one, not kicking in when things go wrong) contribute tremendously to success.

Gold star!!!! He gotba bigger piece of pizza than i did! Wow.

I would also like to add the guy who isn't healthy. Be as healthy and super rested as possible before training. On average, I got 6 hrs or less of sleep a night. Ground school was 8-6 or 7 sometimes (including lab work with FMS), group sessions, etc. Then eat at 8pm. Then study and try to get into the cockpit mock up some time that night as well as more group study. You also have to bathe! Then up at 6:30 for breakfast, 7:30 van ride to the training center. There was bad mold at the hotel too and I got sick during training. I had to take 2 weeks off, then come back to midnight sim sessions lasting till dawn which were hell. Go heavy on the vitamins, time for exercise will be at lunch. Weekends, forget going home and just rest instead. I believe any applicant needs complete focus. It is good prep for being a new pilot on reserve, weeks away from home (for commuters) and constantly shifting sleep cycles.