Whats the deal with Flows
 

Hey everyone, Im new to the forum, so I’m sure I will somehow offend some people here with this post, but thats part of the fun here right!? I have done some research here and have a hard time finding [relatively] concise information regarding flow throughs at PSA, Piedmont, or Envoy. For me this is my main draw to an operator as I am in a position to move wherever necessary for the best opportunity for growth, and in a way can take some concessions for opportunity later. (or at least I feel like I can now) Airplane doesn't matter to me, but upgrade would be important. I know that these operators can have hollow promises, and everyone is looking for that perfect spot but who really knows anything for sure, so screw it. - Here is what I'm wondering.

-What are the flows based on? I know seniority is the main factor, but are there any other concerns with this?

-How does AA select the number of people from each carrier to comprise a class? (percentage based, or is there set numbers?)

-What are these places really looking like regarding a time frame from mouths of the people currently working there?

-Whats the fine print here? I know that there is some clause like [by need from operator] somewhere which obviously can screw some people. but is there anything else to consider?

I can tell you how flows work at Envoy.

You interview with Envoy and get hired. Congratulations, you have now also been hired at AA. When your name comes up in seniority order you select YES or NO. If you select YES, you get a class date. Done.

Envoy gets 50% of each AA class although it's in reality been over 60%. Piedmont is similar to Envoy except for them it's 3 or 4 per month that go to AA. PSA is completely different. They don't have a flow, but what's called SSP= Special Selection Process. That means they still need to interview for the job, and only 4 per month are selected to interview.

Thanks! That sounds good on paper for sure, but whats the outlook from the line regarding a timeframe?

Don't come to PSA for any sort of hope of "flowing" to AA mainline. We don't currently offer that. We have an "SSP" which means in about 20 years you will get a guaranteed interview. There have been talks between our MEC and the company about increasing the amount of pilots guaranteed an interview each month, or just stopping the SSP and instituting a flow ala Piedmont and Envoy but so far nothing has materialized. PSA has other attractive qualities, but as of right now, working here basically excludes you from being hired at one of the big 3 legacy airlines as they experience a massive hiring boom over the next 5 years. If AA is your goal, don't come to PSA. Things could change in the future, but as of right now that's the best advice I can give you. If I was picking from the AAG wholly owned regionals right now, I'd choose Piedmont.

Incorrect.

4 pilot positions are to be offered for each month that AA is hiring.
They can interview 100, or 5. But at least 4 have to be hired.
Max would be 48/year hired from PSA.

My question is with the AA flow, do you need the 4 year degree?

Nope, with PDT.

Not sure about envoy and psa but at pdt the answer is no.
You can even come back to pdt with your seniority if for some reason you can't pass training at AA.

There is NO additional requirement to flow to AA from Envoy beyond what is required to just get hired at Envoy in he first place.

So the answer is: No, you don't need a degree.

whats the outlook for time at envoy? I thought some of the flows are still happening from people hired over a decade ago.

Exactaly... Ask a Eagle guy hired in 1999 how his 2 year to flow is going...

Flow Through Agreement to American Airlines:

All pilots (including new-hires) are eligible for flow-through to American Airlines without interviewing. There are now four “groups” of flow-through pilots, with two groups having a “trigger date” that increases the amount of pilots to flow to American:

Group: "The 824"Group: "The Protected Pilots"Group: "The BK Kids"Group: "After DOS"I'm just pointing out that it's not always 50%. Also: Hopefully that answers the OP's question about Envoy's flow.

Flow for people currently being hired is six years. Look at the following chart:

Attachment 2415

Unless you have a time machine and plan on going back and being hired in 1999, it is disingenuous to talk about who is "currently" flowing as if that is an indicator of how long it will take current new hires to flow.

Live in the past all you want. Everyone at AA from the CEO down has emphasized over and over that flow through Envoy will be the fastest path to mainline. They have not only talked about it, they have continued to show it over and over by having Envoy pilots be over 60% of each class when the requirement is only 50%.

Which company has the fastest flow for someone hired this year?

Envoy flowthrough numbers:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2q0qe6u.png

Based on this logic, why bother going to a regional with a "quick upgrade" The company is full of guys that have been with the company 15 - 20 years waiting to be hired by Delta, United, or American. Since these guys have clearly not been hired by this companies during the last 15 years, you would clearly be wasting your time going there since the hiring practices for the next 15 years in this industry will be dictated by the hiring practices during the "Lost Decade".

Come on guys, I understand your desire to down play the flow for your own benefit but surely your are smart enough to not expect people to think the flow will be the same while AA has the largest hiring wave in 30 years as it was during a 13 year period of ZERO HIRING.

What is the likelihood though that the flow will be honored when it is your time to choose yes or no? I have heard that major airlines annul flow-agreements whenever it does not suit their end-goals. The flow is attractive to me as well, and Envoy was not on my list of regionals for which I wanted to work yesterday, but I will surely reconsider so long as I can be reasonably assured that once I begin working for Envoy, I will have a spot awaiting me at AA....

Just a guy wanting to get into the 121 world and has only just begun to discover its confusing details.

For American Airlines, and specifically AA CEO Doug Parker, the flow is their future. They are counting on it to staff their wholly owned Regionals (in particular Envoy and Piedmont).

The current flow, as it stands, is Doug Parker's baby. He is extremely proud of it and talks it up like a proud father every chance he gets. The new AA not only believes in flow, they have gone "all in" so to speak.

Their theory goes that in lieu of raising pay at the Regional level they will provide a streamlined, expedited path to AA where the real money is. That streamlined path to AA will attract new hires rather than just simply raising first year pay a little and telling your pilots "good luck on your job hunt" as Republic is trying (and failing) to do with their pilots.

So yes, the flow will be honored and is here for the long run. It's the way of the future and is certainly something that will forever be associated with AA.

They can't just "annul" it. Barring another bankruptcy and getting contracts flushed down the toilet. The flow is contractual and arbitrated awards. It would be like them saying OK, I know your contractual pay rate is $80/hr but we just aren't going to pay you that anymore because it doesn't suit our needs.. I guess they "could" do that whenever they feel like it, but it will go to court, and they will very likely lose and have to make it right with damages, back pay etc...

They have not ever thrown out any flow yet.. The old letter 3 flow from MANY years ago was convoluted and had lots of problems and delays, and then we had flowbacks from AA come back down to Eagle due to the massive AA furloughs around 9/11 that lasted until just a few years ago. Also AA didn't hire anyone for over a decade up until 2013 (so of course there was no flow through that time for all those years, and it's why people on the forums always say "look" how long the Envoy flow is.. without understanding WHY.. NO NEW HIRES AT AA FOR 13 YEARS!!).. But NOW, since the AA furloughs have been recalled (one last batch left to go if they want to return) and hiring has resumed in 2013.. The flow has been working and they are honoring it (actually better then they are required to do). If you look at the above chart, hiring this year has been kinda slow at AA.. but they have still given us 65% of the class slots for the year. They are only required to give us 50% of new hire positions. Next year AA hiring projections are around 700 I believe. Someone correct me If I'm off a bit here.. Can't remember exactly what that announcement said.

There is more good info about flow and movement further down the page on the other Envoy thread: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...signments.html

I really don't know of any other flow over the last decade, since I have been in this industry that was ever just "annulled". Compass/Northwest flow is being honored by Delta.. Piedmont/USair to AA.. PSA or Endeavor isn't really a flow, just a preferential interview.. What other one's is there?

How creditable is your source of this information? For starters, AA is the ONLY airline with a current flow program. Delta is flowing Compass guys from a discontinued Flow that they had started with NWA and they only offer guaranteed interviews to Endeavor pilots. United has unilaterally stated they will never set up a flow program. The only airlines with an actual true flow (not requiring an interview and offer of employment) is envoy and PDT. PSA only guarantees you an interview at AA. (Stick around and we might or might not offer you a job one day) Since AA has began hiring again, they have always met the obligations of that flow and NEVER annulled such programs. Never. Please read between the lines of some of the posters concerning the flow. Many, I would guess are former envoy pilots that were spooked by the pressure Parker put on us and bailed for other regional airlines chasing quick upgrades. I would guess the rest are employees of non wholly owned companies that are fearful that they might be the next airline that announces stagnation and shrinking due to their inability to staff their Air Service Agreements.

Good stuff on here guys! Learning a ton, and thanks to everyone for keeping it civil. Envoy is becoming more appealing and trying to change the perception people have of them. The flow seems [relatively] promising, and the equipment will no doubt be top notch, bases seem good, I'm from Chicago (go hawks!) and wouldn't mind moving back, and Dallas is definitely a fun town. QOL would be much better for most in comparison to Piedmont, and with Piedmont only bringing 3 or 4 people through with the flow per month is their advertised 3-5 year flow, and short upgrade realistic (assuming everything stays ok)? Or would Envoy still offer more room for progression to the left seat/AA or is getting seat locked still an issue?

Cheers!

I think at the end of the day, the flow time between all the WOs would be similar. Current upgrade time at pdt is about 1.5 years and dropping.

Is there anything that would contractually preclude an Envoy (or other WO) pilot from pursuing a position with AA on their own while they await their flow?

No such provision in the envoy contract, and we have had quite a few hired off the street in the last two years. PSA does have that problem you are excluded from any other form of interview. Not sure what PDT got.

You go girl !

SELL.......SELL.......SELL !

We both know there are a few chumps left out there and wringing that dishrag out to the last drop means more commission, so double down on the hard pitch !

Talk to Continental Express (now ExpressJet) guys who had their flow anulled.

Don't forget the 150 or so Eagle (Envoy) Letter 3 pilots who were waiting for AA seniority assignment whose flow was scrapped via arbitrators ruling in 2008.

A lot of Envoy salesmen (some new and using subterfuge identities) are selling Envoy HARD promising unicorns and rainbows (AA being the pot of gold) here.

If Envoy were truly that, it would sell itself instead of desperate characters of question selling Envoy so aggresively.

Caveat Emptor.

There's a new pilot sucker born every minute, we're going to need them!!

Those guys are still to this day having to see a proctologist at least once a year. COEX didn't even have the decency to buy them flowers.

This is a lie. Plain and Simple. Keep trying though. Have you ever thought of getting a girlfriend and spending your free time have sex instead of posting lies about a company you don't even work for anymore?

And there is it. Had a good positive run on this thread for a while though! Haha.

All kidding aside, what is a WO? I'm sure that's a dumb question but I'm having a hard time cramming more acronyms in my brain!

Anyone else care to weigh in on the prospects at Piedmont.
Everything but the bases seems good there, is that the only real drawback to that place, or am I missing something?

No, it is the absolute truth. Arbitrator Bloch ruled in 2008 that those flow-thru's who didn't have a class date at the expiration of Letter 3 lost their flow-thru rights. Why don't you contact your regional Envoy sales manager Cujo who might be able to clue you in or better yet, call Euless and ask to talk to Wayne ?

The fact is you really have no idea of anything you're talking about here and are just selling B.S. to any poor sap stupid enough to listen.

BTW, most Envoy pilots aren't subject to the 824 award and everything after that for most present and ALL future Envoy pilots isn't even an arbitral award, but simple agreement of the parties (management/union) and is modifiable at any point in the future under several scenarios

Pucker up, Buttercup. ;)

Let me fix it for you. If you had read Bloch's ruling you would realize that it was for the Letter 3 flows only. I've talked to Wayne about it and the 824/PP group is totally different.

Any idiot can see that out of all the regionals, Envoy is top tier because of the enhanced flow agreement. Only one interview and it takes you all the way to AA. No SSP, no interview or being turned down. When your number comes up, it's as simple as a transfer and boom, you are in class at AA.

I have read Bloch's ruling several times and know more about that agreement then you could ever learn. If YOU had any comprehension skills, you'd note I refrenced Letter 3. Additionally, I never questioned the 824, but pilots after that who don't even HAVE any arbitral weight by award and are thus at the whim of whatever circumstances develop in the future for Envoy. Remember (well, that's probably expecting too much), the question was about if a flow-thru could be stripped and it has.........right here at Envoy in 2008.

Is this you 665 ?

If so, flip yourself back to heads. You at least made sense some of the time on that side of the coin.

This side is a complete disaster.

This place borders on the surreal at times.

Any insight on this?

Well that and the WO makes it something that needs to be weighed out carefully.

WO means wholly owned. PDT is going to grow and you will upgrade quickly. The base structure should be ok with PHL as a base.

Piedmont ' s flow increases as we grow. Sending 5/month the next 3 months. Right no they aren't having problems hiring (of course this will change one day, it always does) but getting in before we have 500 pilots will get you to AA FAST. 5.5-6 years. Looking at a total of 8-900 pilots minimum

Piedmont has endured Years and Years of shrinking and flying aged aircraft. During our merger with ALG we had a fleet of just over 100 planes. That shrunk to a number less then 40!!
2 years ago I wouldn't have signed anyone of my friends up to come here because it was just a depressing place to be. Unless you lived it base it was hard to commute with our outstations and horrible schedules. That has now changed (Not the Schedules yet) and we are about double in size and have a continued movement in place because of the flowthru.

PHL is opening and it will continue to grow and grow and then another base like DCA or the rumored RDU might open. Not sure but I believe the plane is to get Piedmont going with the 145's and then switch over to the 175's and probably down the road merge with ENVOY. That won't happen for a long time.
Piedmont is a good place to come right NOW. 3-4 years???? How knows because it seems that the regional on top today will not be later. While I'll be gone to American it will be nice to see growth and happy people at Piedmont again like it used to be.