Unions?
 

This might give light to the moisture behind my ears but.. What's the point of having such a large Union like ALPA if every airline has different contracts with their pilots, paying different rates, and compete with each other (resulting in lower pay rates)? So for example, shouldn't all ALPA members be operating under a single contract? Same pay for flying a given airframe, same rigs, days off etc.

I feel like operating this way would have prevented the mainline/regional pay and benefits inequality that exists today, and especially combat the way regionals are used against each other by their owners (the reason I think American feels the need to own 3 regionals to fly its passengers....). Heck I'd even say with a proper Union (of ALPA's size anyway) the regionals wouldn't exist at all. But this is my first Union job and I'm not savvy to how exactly these big unions are supposed to work. Thoughts?

Forgive me if this is a dead horse, and I do realize the other important things that ALPA and other unions offer. Just thinking out loud..

Unions?
 

Your kidding right? Are you for real? Please tell me your kidding.

No. You nailed it. ALPA at the regional level is a complete failure.

Union carriers undercutting other union carriers in order to get more Jettttzzzzzzzzzzz. Nothing to see here, move along.

You're*. Thanks for the meaningful response :)

Only thing ALPA is good for at the regional level is job protection should you find yourself getting in trouble. But again, this only works if your reps like you. The rest of it serves to give a few a fatter paycheck at your expense

Exactly why I don't see how a "regional level" of ALPA is even allowed. Why do people pay dues to a union that offers so little protection? Just imagine the bargaining power of a single airline Union that negotiates one contract for all airlines. Things might just go back to how they were during the good old days...

They would. And it would be amazing. Which is why this would never be allowed to happen, unfortunately.

Anyone who thinks we will ever return to the "good ol days" has lost their grip on reality.

This...this.right.here.

Add "Hard Landing" to the list after FTL I and II.

All of this has happened before...and will happen again.

*** are you even talking about? Have you read anything about the history of this industry? If not, why? Reference the deregulation Act of 1978 and the Railway Labor act. Holy crap. At least attempt to be informed.

Hard Landings
Flying the line 1 and 2

Scott

Of course he hasn't. Do you really need to ask?
Perhaps it should be required reading prior to accepting membership.
At my first carrier the hard copies were distributed to us new-hires. The implication was it was done because it was important to educate yourself on the union you were joining. Reading it enlightens the new members on industry background, the importance of a union, and the most important one; an individual's duty as a member of the union.
That lost sense of individual responsibility is why questions like this are even asked.
I don't blame the original poster, it's a collective failure.

How does Flying the Line address the failures of ALPA at the regional level? I, II, and Hard Landing were all published prior to the sale of scope.

That being said, if the books do address why ALPA never brought all airline pilots under the same umbrella contract or to a minimum standard, could somebody paraphrase rather than telling the OP to go read some books?

And for the record, OP, your questions were perfectly reasonable and I'd love to know too.

Simple answer is all airline unions are almost useless due to the rla and nmb.

You clearly didn't read the texts and regulations. ALPA has to work within the framework of the RLA. This isn't like the Teamsters representing trade unions. Our contract agreements are different. Our ability to execute self help are severely restricted. They never expire. they are amendable.

To somehow expect that joining ALPA will fundamentally transform a pilot group is pretty silly. What you've bought is resources. Each pilot group elects their representatives and uses their resources and situation to create leverage. There has rarely been a more pilot friendly leverage environment in the history of this industry.

Scott

One large problem, all these people complain about ALPA this and ALPA that. Let me ask you a question, have you gotten involved with ALPA and tried to better your profession? Most people just act like Monday morning quarterbacks in response to what goes on. If you think you'd be better off without ALPA, please, by all means, go for it. The grass is not always greener.

We'd be better off without the RLA but ALPA has never pursued that, either.

Alpa is what keeps regional pilots in line. It's the company's police department to ensure pilot compliance with whatever scheme the regional airline devises. It is fully accepted and sanctioned by major airlines and their pilots. For them to enrichen themselves, you must suffer.

Most pilots are too dumb to see this therefore it persists like a deadly cancer.

You know you are screwed when alpa puts on presentations such as "Fee For Departure Interview Tips" instead of "Let's Destroy the Regional Airline B Scale Once and For All".

Once again. Talking out of your ass. You honestly believe that ALPA never challenged or leveraged the RLA? ALPA has done both. The chess match continues. We, unfortunately, happen to be the pawns.

Scott

I'm going to say your first name is Scott and your last name is Stoops.

Keep in mind here, ALPA is NOT a union. It is an ASSOCIATION designed to allow any regional to be whipsawed against each other without national intervention. ALPA just wants numbers so they can increase they're income.

If you don't believe me, give Tim Cannoll a call and ask him whether they're a union or not. PSA is a prime example of why ALPA is NOT a union and not on the side of regionals.

This is more towards what I'm getting at. Especially with unions that claim to represent multiple carriers, but can't protect the from being used against each other by the same companies that they claim to protect us from. Isnt that some kind of false advertising? Haha.. I think the whole system is silly.

Take off your tin foil hat. ALPA national is an association of unions.

ok. You really are a great detective. And. What have I said that isn't true? Amazing how candid this gets when we use our names. So...and.

Scott

What exactly do you think a union does? Why does it exist? Why did your fellow pilots fight to create them? Why does the government recognize them? Why does industry fight against and attempt to destroy them? Silly. That's your perspective. Ufb.

Scott

Why thank you. After careful review, I'm going to say you like adding your name at the end of each post.

I don't think you understand my question. You say why does IT exist, while I say why do THEY exist under the banner of one while they act on their own (often at the expense of their counterparts)? That is what I find silly. And the fact that one group represents pilots from both mainline and the regionals (basically A vs. B scale) at the same time is even more silly. AND the fact that regional pilots pay money to an association for this type of "representation" is just, well you get where I'm going.

If an airline's pilot group is to be unionized (which I think it should be), then maybe it should have it's own union and not collaborate (and pay money to) an association that does little to protect its interests. Of course in magical fairy land one union (or association) would have one contract and one pay scale, and represent their group as a whole...but I guess that doesn't make sense in today's world?

Completely agree.

Good luck getting that to a floor vote in the House much less convincing 218 Congressmen, 51 Senators, and one President that threatening the commerce of an entire nation is worth allowing a very small group to exercise self.

The current national trend is against organized labor

ALPA national is an association for local ALPA unions. PSA ALPA has nothing to do with Mesa ALPA or Envoy ALPA. If ALPA national was a union that represented every ALPA pilot, we would all have global seniority numbers, one list. Go chew on that for a bit... The implications that would have... The **** fight that would create.

ALPA is not a union. It's an association of twenty-something independent unions. Each individual MEC uses the resources of the association at their discretion for their own purposes. Once you understand that, you'll understand the difference.

But ALPA was created, first, for the betterment of safety. If all airline pilots were paying dues under one association (or union), they would have more leverage in the halls of congress, the White House, the judiciary, the nmb, TSA, dhs, fbi, etc. ALPA is, first and foremost, an aviation safety advocate. And we should all feel compelled to improve safety first. We do that by uniting under one association/Union. The bargaining and job protections should be secondary and tertiary.

If only this was true of mgmt as well as ALPA maybe it would be more of a level playing field.

This is pretty much the ONLY thing that needs to be said.

At every level EXCEPT the regional, that statement is true.

With regional management being at the whim of the legacies that STILL want cheaper feed combined with a lowest bidder principle it's really not that easy.

Sadly, the regionals are under pressure like you (and your dad) were during the bankruptcy. Sure, you can try to hold the line, but management can only do so much with what money they have, that the mainline pays them. For the regional management to tell the legacy that their costs are going up and need to be paid more would be like you telling management during the bankruptcy that you need more money, NOT LESS.

And a trickle down effect is this;

With the legacies hiring like crazy and some scope recapture (that we HOPE continues), ALPA National cares less and less what happens at the regional level.

ALPA National has displayed ZERO interest of late reduce/eliminate whipsaw amongst the regional groups.

With Obama in office, I don't think you'll ever see a more friendly president to organized labor, ever again... Kind of kills the argument of voting Democrat for labor eh?

Thanks for your input. So, basically our political lobbying power is greater as an association, but we're on our own when it comes to negotiating contracts etc. I just don't see how an association of unions (unions being created for an entirely different purpose) can be so weak and divided when it comes to negotiating. But if advocating safety is their main (and basically, only) function then boy, they sure do take and spend a lot of money to have a voice on capitol hill..

Mostly true. Although see above. National doesn't care much about lobbying on behalf of the regional groups. Safety, medical, other things, sure.

Again, mostly true.

Pre 9/11 the leapfrogging/"jacking up the house" of pattern bargaining was taking place. AWAC, Mesaba, ACA, ASA, Eagle, then ACA, AWAC each ratcheting up compensation and work rules at the regional level.

Post 9/11 that really hasn't happened on the same scale, if at all.

Certain regionals are getting better than what they individually had, they may not be raising the bar for all the other regionals providers like pre 9/11.

Except having a democratic, pro labor president means literally nothing when the legislative body is majority Republican and anti labor. The political leanings of a President matter incredibly less than people make it out to be.

Agree. Something like RLA relief will never make it to a floor vote in the House clean.

The only way the pilot community gets RLA relief is to get it into something like the transportation authorization/funding bills or perhaps traded for 1500 hour rule relief.

For the record, I don't really see what your point is. From what I understand, the RLA outlines a negotiation process and the NMB is used as part of that process. What does the RLA/NMB/Deregulation have to do with the size and unity of a union? Unions still exist, do they not?

The shortest and easiest answer is that under the Railway Labor Act striking is very, very hard to do and a strike can be vetoed by the government before it ever starts. It almost always is.

Allegiant pilots tried to strike earlier this year but were told they couldn't, even when the company blatantly disregarded NMB instructions as a middle finger to negotiations and pilots. The justification is that airlines are essential to national commerce and us greedy pilots would shut down the national transportation system at every opportunity for our own selfish benefit. Now consider: that was just Allegiant. If they won't let pilots stop a few flights from Missoula, Montana to Mesa, Arizona, imagine how resounding the NO would be to United pilots trying to strike, or somebody operating United's regional feed as de facto essential air service. Remember, half of all airline flights are flown by regionals now. Without the ability to strike - and management knows we can't - we have absolutely no leverage to negotiate or to even stop management from dragging out negotiations indefinitely.

I've read as much as I could find online about the RLA and efforts by ALPA relating to it. This thread also shed very little light on the subject.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...epeal-rla.html

If ALPA has done anything to repeal or amend the RLA, would you please tell us about it or reference where we could find more about it?

Great response, thanks.