I think your "facts" are borne of your position of view. Talk to most AA pilots and I think you'll get anything BUT what you say when discussing AAG (the "new" American Airlines) and whether they are living up to their promises, at least to the pilots. Parker promised to come in and change the culture here for the better, but most seem to agree that has yet to occur. I think it is in many ways worse, if not just as bad. Even APA who ushered him in on a flying carpet says that, i.e., that the long awaited positive culture change promised has yet to occur. One example is that they appear to be strategically dragging out contractual provisions that favor the pilots and quickly implementing ones that are beneficial to them.

IF AAG is willing to take that tack and arguably disregard the value of morale and employee good will at the core business, what can you reasonably expect from them regarding fringe entities like Envoy ?

Besides, what occurs at Envoy is largely a by-product of how Envoy management chooses to run their house and not solely the parameters and tasks assigned to them by AAG. No offense intended, but I think you are either truly naïve about what you posted here or are deliberately trying to paint a picture that doesn't exist.

eaglefly you are talking about a change in culture, which is subjective. The guy said that AA-the implication being AAG-is untrustworthy and does not keep promises. I ask for specific examples. Saying that the much anticipated culture change at AA has yet to occur is not an example. That is subjective and open to interpretation. Cite specific examples of a promise made that was subsequently broken. In particular as it relates to Envoy. Otherwise, this argument is over as I'm not going to get into yet another "spin the wheels in the mud" match with eaglefly.

I don't like Parker anymore than the next guy. But he and the rest of the US Airways team are far and away better than what we had previously under AMR. And it pains me to say that because it puts me in a position of having to defend them every time someone mistakes AAG with AMR. Airline managers are all scum and in my opinion out of touch with the realities of flying the line. But to say that AAG hasn't been keeping their promises is inaccurate.

Saying that AAG is untrustworthy because AMR was untrustworthy is disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

You are absolutely correct. Been out of the loop a few years. Based on what I have been hearing from my friends who still fly there and the posts on this board (and others) I had made the assumption that AMR to AAG was nothing more than a name change, because from my vantage point, I cannot tell the difference between the two in the way they treat you guys.

I stand corrected.

But I DID provide an example of AAG not keeping promises. I stated they they are dragging their feet and stalling out pilot beneficial contractual components and implementing self-beneficial ones. One claim involves "computer issues", but many issues requiring that don't seem to impede company beneficial provisions. I'm just going on what APA is saying, so it isn't just me. Aside from specific examples involving Envoy, why is that necessary if one shows that promises are broken elsewhere by the same source ?

Do you think Envoy is "special" in Parker's eye's somehow, more so then AA ?


My opinions have nothing to do with Parker personally, just connecting the dots on an entity that from most views here talked-the-talk, but has yet to walk-the-walk in regard to what they implied we could expect at the "new" AA. Again, if they aren't meeting that litmus here, why should anyone believe they intend to do that there in the future ?

AFAIC, anyone who makes that assumption based on the present view outside the front windscreen here or there, I consider disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst.

This whole argument can be settled fairly easily:
Someone who works at Envoy can look up a pilot on the seniority list that was hired roughly around the same time as the first 2.5/6 announcement, and let us know how close that pilot is to upgrade/flow. Done.

I hope for his sake that he secures a mainline job before he colleagues flow because he clearly carries a great deal of doubt about his decision to leave. If hindsight proves that it wasn't the "best" decision, I am not sure he will be able to live with it.



Parker is definitely worse than Arpey or Horton. But that and his relationship with AA/APA is hardly the point. Parker is a glorified accountant. His decisions concerning the flow and flying allocated to envoy is all about the numbers and whipsaw negotiation tactics. Parker will make the flow work because its a cheapest alternative recruitment tool. envoy will eventually offer increased financial incentive to attract new hires, it will never be as much as companies like RAH, TSA and SKYW will have to offer. Its saves him money so he will MAKE it work.

The stabilization of envoy's fleet has nothing to do with Parker being a good person or being happy with our cost structure. In fact he has very openly discussed his regional contract strategy. Lowest bidder gets the contract but if their performance numbers fall, they will lose it. The only reason that flying is stabilizing/coming back to envoy is because it lowest bidder contractor over estimated their abilities to staff the contracts that were under bid during a scarce pilot marketplace. In any case, AAG and envoy's management's plans have changed and the contraction and stagnation that have haunted envoy pilots since 2011 have stopped. A normal person would be happy that some positive things are happening for his former coworkers. Then again, narcissists don't usually identify themselves as part of a group, because its all about them, isn't it.

It's not always the perspective that gets you the attention you get, it's the method and frequency of delivery. Plenty of people share your opinion, but they have the sense to say it and then shut up until able to contribute something new to the discussion.

Your last two sentences are perfectly reasonable and sensible, something the vast majority of people here have been saying for a while. The outliers are the ones putting envoy on a pedestal, but there's no shortage of haters.

Interactive Seniority List provided by ALPA shows a Nov '15 hire would flow in March 2022, so around 6 1/2 years to flow. The problem is the assumptions to make those numbers work and 2022 is a LONG, long time from now, way too long to make an accurate prediction. Mgmt doesn't even know what's gonna happen 6-12 months from today. Look at our Miami base for example, they closed it and less than 12 months later they came back asking us to open a satellite base 'cause Republic couldn't handle it. Someone should build a flux capacitor and solve this once and for all.

I don't see Parker as better or worse then his predecessors, he's pretty much the same. The primary difference here and now IMO, is that his predecessors showed little interest in the labor/product association whereas Parker claimed he did. He stated that he thought AA's biggest obstacle (or something to that effect) was its poor labor relations and so he set himself up when he promised to make that a priority of correction and then failed to deliver or at least has failed so far. When the rank and file see that occur, it tends to make one look worse then your predecessors not by comparison. I understand your opinion on what Parker thinks of the flow and yes, I agree you are correct in that it serves the best purpose for stabilization of AAG's feed while solutions to the problem are devised long-term. But IMO, Envoy's flow as it stands now is simply a short-term situation in present form to clean up and put to bed an arbitral albatross and once that is gone, more significant alterations in the AAG feed network will occur balancing out this mechanism. Thus, the belief that Envoy will remain a superior entity to other AAG WO's in the future is misguided. Let's face it, many present Envoy pilots DO feel Envoy is superior to other regionals and have stated so here and elsewhere. This is a delusion that simply reinforces desirable ideals about what the future is for Envoy in relation to that which is supposedly inferior to it, even non-AAG regionals.

Your comments above bely just that sentiment.


Don't look now, but there you go again throwing rocks with your "narcissist" claims......and you wonder why the rocks come flying back at you, yet. :cool:

You were doing so well at not poisoning a nice discussion, too.

Oh well. Anyhoo, what you discuss is likely to be temporary, but it's more useful to muddy that up for more flexibility in the future and not simultaneously and unnecessarily startle the snakes slithering in that particular patch of grass. The lowest bidder paradigm is indeed the driver and once the 824 are cleared out, all that will remain at Envoy that needs to be corrected to ensure Envoy's equality is a few hundred lifers on 18-year scale and a 12/4 pay scale. Rest assured that will come and Envoy will almost certainly contract to approximately balance the growth that will be seen in the other WO's over time to have 3 equal carriers with identical pilot labor costs and flow-thru's, absent consolidation, of course.

Is it coincidence AAG has withheld Envoy's flying allocation for 2016 past March ?

You'd think that if your blind claim that Envoy can only grow and has no risk of over-estimating its OWN abilities (which you seem all to eager to do) in the future, AAG would have more confidence in making commitments to it beyond a few months. They haven't and there's a reason for that. I think the reason is that Envoy is not going to be what you think it will in a year or two and if it's not, any claims of X upgrade or Y flow are indeed pie-in-the-sky optimistic projections or as I believe it was you who said "suggestions". I'm happy many patient Envoy pilots are flowing and things like that ARE good, but just because most of the feedback I get from sources INSIDE Envoy don't paint a rosy picture there and I question claims that don't add up to me and I acknowledge that doesn't mean I'm narcissistic, nor have an ax to grind.

It seems the same few of you really do want others who don't always toe a happy line about Envoy and instead highlight the stark realities and questionable contrasts are the ones the same few always want to "shut up". Someone posted Ric's latest blast and that contributed nothing new, being a rehash and yet, no criticism there from yes...........the very same few of you.

Coincidence ?

I think not. :cool:

I too think you too make some occasionally good points, but when you don't, I don't demand you shut-up or go away. I guess we're just wired differently, eh ?

Yes, you believe there's no shortage of haters, but I believe there thankfully IS a shortage of sellers, but unfortunately who when not doing or advocating that, turn their caps backwards and become vicious attackers of those they believe are haters even when they are not. I guess conflict is a way of life, yes ?

Yes, technically it's possible (at least the flow), but everything has to run smoothly at both Envoy and AA, yet AAG wont even commit to Envoy past a few months, so 2.5 or 6 year claims of confidence seems a more then a stretch. If they intended to commit long-term to Envoy, they would reopen MIA, not ask Envoy to be temporary pinch-hitters until either RAH can handle it or Envoy demonstrates it can't either and plan C is devised.

The AAG regional network is simply in a fluid state of "whack-a-mole" right now and no one can infer anything about what will happen within in by next year or later.

eaglefly, I'm not sure if you are aware of this but over time all 3 wholly owned AA regionals (Envoy, PSA, PDT) will together account for 50% of new hires at American. This isn't a secret. That is AA's long term plan.

The 824 and Protected Pilot group will continue to flow at a higher rate when compared to PSA and PDT. So together the 3 wholly owned Regionals make up well over half of each AA's new hire classes currently. Envoy alone is 50% minimum. After the Protected Pilot group Envoy will be a similar size to the other two, and at that point all three combined will make up 50% of new hires at AA. The other 50% will be off the street hires...most likely military pilots.

This isn't exactly secretive information. You keep making predictions regarding the long term health of the flow without realizing the long term plan has already been laid out. Just relax.

You guys are scaring envoy1. He has been quiet lately. Right Cujo?

Good Luck!

Quite calm here.....almost serene. :)

Thanks for the info, but I'm aware of the flow provisions. I'm not sure if YOU are aware of this, but you seem to be making predictions yourself as in stating what will occur in the future. We both are making predictions and it's my prediction that once the 824 are done and Envoy is right-sized (contracts to a smaller carrier) to approximate the growing two other WO's, the flow must and will be balanced out so that no one carrier (of three essentially equal sized carriers) will have a lopsided flow attrition mechanism. I think you are assuming the CURRENT situation as being the long-term plan, but if the three carriers will eventually be equal, it makes sense all factors are equal to ensure balance. The current situation IMO, is driven by desire to move the 824 ASAP and remove that issue from the equation.

When those changes occur, relax. You'll eventually get to AA should you be determined to be an loser like me who couldn't get hired elsewhere, but the question is when and the variables in play and the future make up of the WO's will alter your present assumption about what is happening today. I understand the desire to believe Envoy is superior to others, but it's just business and there are no kings of the hill here, only temporary occupiers of the crest.

Good Luck !

It's going to be more than 50%, several Envoy pilots continue to be hired from the street.

I'm not even trying to get to a legacy. I've put all the numbers side by side and my decision is to stay here for the long haul. Being at a legacy might be great for some but for me it's all about pay and QOL.

Leaving that steaming pile at Envoy behind was a great move. For me. In the past I've commented on here with a neutral stance and when I post facts about current upgrade times, current flow and the untrustworthiness of management, I get bludgeoned as some Envoy basher.

When you guys are unable to listen to another opinion that has facts attached to it that don't line up with what you want to happen, the response is to go on full attack mode.

For you guys that are so high on AAG management, here is a fact.

Eagle/Envoy had already signed a bankruptcy agreement with AMR and things were basically set when US took over. AAG came in and wanted more skin off your back and said take it or we will give your airplanes away. After an initial no vote followed months later by a yes vote, AAG took your airplanes away and put Envoy in essence circling the drain. This shows these guys are just as bad, if not worse than AMR. They are playing ball with you now because it lines up with what they need. If something changes the landscape, don't expect these guys to do the honorable thing and stick to your agreement.

Depending on where you fall on the seniority list, I wouldn't place all my bets on the flow. If you are a 2006, early 2007 protected pilot, you may make it to AA although I don't see it in the time frame of the interactive seniority list. After that I think all bets are off depending on the staffing situation at Envoy. This house of cards Ric W is building needs a foundation of hundreds of new hires per year when the shrinking is done. If you think they are out there in these numbers then by all means, keep banking on the flow.

If I hadn't been able to get out when I did and were still at Envoy, I would be beating the bushes for ANY job better than that regional cesspool. I would place the same faith that I would be flowing as that I'll be drawing a social security check at 65.

QFE.

filler

Ric still projects 2.5/6
 

Did you ever stop and think for a single moment why you get singled out? You really are being singled out on many occasions, that's for real... More so than anybody I've seen here. Seriously, did you? I can say it's not because of your intelligent posts or witty banter, your succinctness or your ability to make a convincing argument. There's a real reason behind it. If you're blind to it, you've got some psychological issues. If you're not, and continue to act the way you do because you enjoy being a jack wagon...well, that answers a lot of questions.

When everyone around you stinks like crap all the time, it's probably not them and it's time to check the bottom of your own shoe.

I'm curious as to why you arbitrarily pick the 824 as the point in time when AAG reneges on their flow agreement with envoy, specifically the Protected Pilot and the contractual flow after that? The only reason I can see you saying that is that you see the 824 agreement working as advertised, so have to pick on the agreements that are next in line in order to look like you have some legitimacy.

What you also fail to mention is that the flow agreements with PDT and envoy are essentially the same once you hit a certain threshold. That threshold being anybody hired here post DOS. Until then, envoy's flow is far and away better (in terms of amount being sent to AA vs. total size of the pilot group) then any other WO. Again, yes for those hired post DOS, the envoy and PDT flow provisions are relatively balanced out. Hence why the flow projection is the same general time period at both PDT and envoy. But you seem to be under the constant belief that AAG is going to renege on the provisions of the flow post-824, in order to "balance it out" with the other two WO's, yet provide no legitimate evidence or argument to back that prediction up.


Edit; Unless you've been out of the loop, envoy is "right sized" or at least very close to it. This does not include any of the anticipated (not yet announced) return of the TSA birds which would correlate to growth. So by your prediction, shouldn't the other two WO's be getting a nice little christmas gift from Dougie in the form of a better flow? Or do they have to wait for the end of the 824 to get a better flow?

Because the 824 are the highest earners and also it was a judge's arbitration. To assume Envoy wouldn't hold back a <12 guy is naive. His cost would be in check industry wide for regional flying.
Do you really think envoy will never need it's captains to run the operation. Even despite the shrinking, the slack will catch up and Envoy will need every pilot they have and will make every attempt to bottle neck the flow.
If you claim that the company is right sized then Envoy will have to hire 1:1 for flow plus the flying it's bringing back, which won't be easy in this environment. PSA pulled it off last year due to laterals that I doubt Envoy will be able to attract.

I agree, that's why they are focusing more on the pipeline than getting pilots from other regionals.

Haha, I love it when people say "because it was a judges arbitration." So I guess you're claiming that any flow after that is essentially worthless and can be "bottle necked" at any time because it's not a judges arbitration? Please elaborate. I might need to re-think some career plans thanks to your wisdom.

If you need to have it explained to you, then you are new to airlines or just playing it that way. But I will bite, judge ruled in arbitration when you hire at AA these 824 will be in those classes. Any flow after that is via an agreement by aag and the union at the regional w/o. Any contract and all contracts have been violated by airline management, selectively.

In other words, it's a lottery, you may win or you may loose. It is controlled and interpreted by aag, does not matter what you understand it to mean. AAG answer will be grieve it and that will take two years at best with AAG foot dragging with the final result being a compromise by aag and Alpa which will result in another watered down flow and no retro protection to those whom aag harmed.

You get it now. Just like our jobs, today we have one tomorrow we don't.

They (the company) can't. Those who suggest otherwise are just talking out of their asses. One can have confidence in the flow for two reasons. 1) Whatever critical staffing situation that, as inferred, would motivate violation that contractual provision, would immediately cause the staffing situation to worsen. There are many other incentive actions that can be taken prior to that point that would be more effective and cost less without having such a negative effect on recruitment and retention. 2) ALPA has won every grievance concerning the Letter 3/Flow creating a significant past precedence on the subject. In other words, the restriction of flow would have a minor and short lived significance on envoy staffing.

Claims to that effect have no legal or logical (business) sense to support it. They are simply saying what they hope will happen without any logical argument to support it.

Oh I'm well aware of this, as is anyone with half a brain. I just would really love to see what basis for an argument those that would love to see envoy fail have to support there claim. The argument "it's not a judges arbitration so it can and will likely be violated" is obviously someone grasping at straws who really does have a bone to pick with the envoy pilot group, for whatever reason that may be.

While I may be new to this forum I'm not new to envoy. I am also very well versed in all of our flow agreements. The description you gave of the 824 was by far the worst I have ever heard, so you lost all credibility right there. Anything you said after that is nothing more then the wishful thinking on your part (christ, you even gave a timeline for how long AAG foot dragging will last!).

On the bright side, I appreciate you showing off how clueless you really are so I know that from here on out I don't have to waste any time with you. Thanks!

Actually no you are wrong. Define to me what the 824 are exactly then define what the cba agreement regarding flow is. You can sit here and blow smoke up anyone's *** you want to show that the flow cannot be tinkered and slowed to a trickle by aag, you need the new hires to come to envoy more than I do.

Alpa had dragged its feet on the violation on letter 3 for years and then settle for less and sold rights away of the letter 3 pilots and they will again when the 824 are gone. AAG timeline that I mentioned was a best case scenario for a grievance solution if required.

Stay in your own world that aag has or will never violate any or all contracts at some point in time if it deems it to its best interest.

Those who spout the flow will work as spelled out fail to understand who controls the flow, it ain't you or me.

Flow is cheap labor for 6 years at best for a new hire if they get to flow, will work for less.

My, my.........such anger and rage. :cool:

If all you hear from me is a bunch of "blahs", it makes you look kinda ridiculous expending so much energy responding. You need a vacation. I recommend somewhere tropical. ;)

Others essentially answered your question for me.

Copy/paste. About 4-5 clicks and I generate just as much useful content as yourself. Virtually effortless.

Your claim of ALPA winning all Letter 3 grievances in incorrect. They lost at least one, several were split awards and at least one more was filed by AMR. Your claim of precedent is equally incorrect as the grievances for the most part were in specific relation to the agreement itself and to compare the specifics of Letter 3 to the protected pilot agreement is comparing apples to oranges.

Welcome to the logical argument bankruptcy club in trying to support your arguments. :rolleyes:

Yes, a legend in your own mind. :rolleyes:

You still need a vacation IMO. Those palm trees are calling.

Wow, someone wrote that with anger! The 824 are 824 Captains (or former Captains) who have flow through rights to AA based upon 50% of the class. They keep certain benefits such as vacation upon transfer to AA that are not available to any flows beyond the 824 They are not 824 names on the seniority list when the judge ruled. You stated "when you hire at AA these 824 will be in those classes" as if to say that the judge picked 824 names and awarded them transfer rights. The protected pilot agreement allows for transfer to AA at a certain ratio for anyone hired pre-October 2011. The flow per the cba also allows for a transfer to AA at a certain ratio at both pre-DOS rates and post-DOS rates.

My argument throughout this entire thread has been against those who are convinced that the 824 will work (because it is) but anything after that will be bottlenecked. At no point in time has anybody given any sort of logical reason why this would happen. The only way I can see it not happening is if AA does not hire, in which case the flow agreements aren't even being violated.

On one hand we have you saying they won't be honored likely because you got screwed by AMR (note, not AAG) and ALPA. On the other hand we have eaglefly saying it won't be honored because he thinks AAG is going to want all WO's to have the same type of flow agreement. Then of course there are the others on here who say it won't be honored because they're grasping at straws to keep people away from envoy. Yet at no time has anybody brought forth a logical argument as to why it won't be honored except their own selfish and misguided opinions!

Well, I'm done for now. I thought this forum might have some decent info on it but it appears to be full of idiots who never have worked here or don't work here anymore but still hold a grudge. Great job.

Actually my dog in this discussion is limited to not blow smoke.
I never stated they are named pilots in the 824, I just referred to 824 pilots.
Whether aag honors the protected pilot agreement is up to aag not me, I just don't want anyone to bet the house and their career on this particular portion of the CBA, that's all.

People want to see unicorns, that is there choice. I will not sell anything in envoy contract as guaranteed in stone, not even my job is completely guaranteed. The flow is a gimmick used to attract pilots at the w/o regionals without having to increase pay and benefits, but other regionals are doing exactly this because they have no flow except commute air.

That's all I have pointed out, that the flow is nothing but a recruitment tool used by aag and can be implemented anyway aag wants to after the 824 arbitration is complete.

I do not work for hashimoto to recruit for the w/o's, nor will I ever.

So what your saying is that the flow can't be f'd with and we are all going to be at american in 6 yrs or less? Sweet. Nothing bad can happen or be taken advantage of.

No never Said anything like that. Feel free to present that position as your own, not mine. Sell what ever you need to prospective pilots. All I will say on this and it will be my final point on this, nothing is a guarantee.

But people should understand that without new hires at the w/o regionals the flow WILL stop after the 824 and those already there need new hires to come so those already there may improve their chance to flow.

How many management personnel are on the forums pushing flow in lieu of substantial pay and benefits for the pilots.

Sounds like they're flowing 30/month starting in January.

I think you are spot on with this. Others keep saying that the flow is not dependent on new hires. Sure, that's the case now while you are still shrinking. With 1950ish pilots, Envoy is probably about 300-350 away from being "right sized" according to AAG. And yes, there is the possibility of getting a few 145s back and who knows when/if the CRJs start leaving again.

If increasing aircraft count is what happens, those new hires are going to be needed sooner or later for this flow to keep going. I've asked before and will ask again now. Do you really think AAG will let aircraft sit idle in order to "honor the flow?" If you do, I'd like some of what it is you are drinking.

I agree also that this flow is being used by management as a recruiting tool.

This is that ass talk I was talking about. The flow can't be stopped. It falls under the same contractual assurance that says you get a min guarantee for the month, and your pay rate. You might as well go around saying, don't work here, there is no guarantee your paycheck will cash. Stopping the flow would make staffing worse, not better and would be overturned through arbitration. Saying, "Anything Can Happen", or "There's No Guarantee" rates right up there with that TV evangelizer saying, "You don't have to understand, You just have to have faith." Stating broad ranging vague philosophical statements is not a valid argument that AAG would violate the contract in a way that would exacerbate the problem that such an action is suppose to address.

I would like to know what you are drinking to think that stopping the flow wouldn't immediately cause this place to self destruct. I have news for you. There already are aircraft sitting idly by because they can't staff them. The situation you claim will come and cause management to stop the flow, ALREADY EXISTS, and guess what? They haven't stopped the flow.

EMB145's Logic : We can't recruit enough to staff. We take the biggest recruitment & retention incentive away. Recruitment and Staffing is now better. :confused: