They will park planes to honor the flow. Pedro said that.


Good Luck!

Pot, meet kettle...

AA/envoy ... I luv envoyDecember 15, 2015


Dear Fellow Employees,

Travel is one of the best privileges of working at an airline. As the largest airline in the world with the best network, it’s an even more compelling benefit at American. It’s our goal to have the best travel program in the business, and each year we review our travel program and compare it to our peers to make sure that statement remains true.

In 2016, once all the necessary system updates can be programmed, we are excited to announce that non-rev travel for both main and premium cabins will be free of charge.

Here’s how it will work:
· Employees, eligible retirees and your eligible dependents (spouse, domestic partner, registered companion and kids) will enjoy Main Cabin, Business and First Class travel at no charge. If the seats are available, you will be in them.

· Just like some popular credit cards, there’s no annual fee! Some carriers waive premium upgrade fees yet require eligible travelers to pay an annual fee for their travel benefits. That’s not the case here. American’s program is ALL free of charge, NO fee travel. Note: Some taxes when traveling internationally will still apply; they’re required by certain countries and airports, and are out of any airline’s control. Similarly, under IRS rules, an employee is subject to imputed income for travel by domestic partners or registered companions.

As you might expect, we’re excited to bring these changes online and begin putting them to use. And although we can’t implement them system-wise January 1, 2016, we anticipate we’ll be able to have them up and running by June 1, 2016.

We are the world’s largest airline, and we’re building the best team in the business by offering the best travel program in the business. Watch for more information in the year ahead. In the meantime, if you’re traveling over the next several weeks, be sure to thank a frontline colleague. It’s a stressful time of the year for many travelers and our team is doing a fantastic job of taking care of them as they make their way home for the holidays.

You do you the "right size" is a thing from the past? That was before AAG realized the other regionals are having trouble staffing the flying.

The flow is working as advertised, we are getting new hires and if the upgrade goes down, people will come.

Be happy at spirit and forget about envoy.

Recently Delta pilots settled a dispute in their contract about international flying that was suppose to be at Delta but the company decided to dole it out to the codeshare partners.
Many pilots thought the settled amount was far less than the damage of breaking the contract.
Right now the flow and the company's financial interest are aligned, no one knows exactly what will happen once they aren't. It stands to reason that an airline purses it own finical interest before honoring a deal. The caution is that you don't want to end up with a "Were sorry for screwing you and here's $5K for the 3 years of employment we cost you at AA". O and btw had you went to a different carrier when we promised you the flow you would be a captain right now or already at a different mainline.

You seem to be an expert on the contracts/agreements of other airlines (I'm assuming you don't work at either Delta or envoy). Where exactly do you work?

That still doesn't answer how stopping the flow would HELP envoys retention and recruitment. It would only solve their problems for a few months while FOs flee the company like rats off a ship and the new hires stop. Its like teaching a student pilot the importance of maintaining best glide speed during an engine failure. Pitching up may temporarily make it appear that you are stretching your glide path to make the field but ultimately you are shortening your glide path and putting yourself in an even worse situation you were in to begin with.

The Delta arbitration is not a valid argument because the only negative impact Delta had to deal with due to their actions was the financial loss. For envoy to stop the flow, they would eventually have to correct the contractual violation but would also suffer greatly on the retention and recruitment aspect of their business.

Please, anybody, describe to me a scenario where stopping the flow could have a long term positive effect on envoy's staffing. It just doesn't make business sense.

I recall a recent poll on EL earlier this year where IIRC approximately 70% of the pilots who answered (out of about 100-150 total) confirmed they planned to stick it out at Envoy unless an LCC, legacy or the AA flow called. In other words they were too committed to "flee the company like rats off a sinking ship" laterally just because. Based on that, new-hires at Envoy can expect little ejection from the more senior pilots who have too much invested should things change at Envoy. Anyone who is a captain certainly wont start over at another regional and most senior F/O's wont either. Those at the bottom of the F/O list are the only ones with so little invested that they would likely consider Envoy a bum hand and jack-knife out to another regional. However.........

........I don't think the flow to AA from any of the WO's will stop. Again, it will be more likely that once the three are of approximate equality and the 824 issue is finished, AAG will orchestrate a situation that requires Envoy to "play ball" on balancing the flow so as not to lop side staffing at any one WO, in this case Envoy. The monthly class percentages will be sought to be equal. AAG will have little problem getting Envoy ALPA to capitulate with the right pressure and let's face it, they've already demonstrated themselves to be on their knees at this point. The "plan B" option presented will be far worse. So..................if each carrier is 1200-1400 pilots in 2 years, that means Envoy would contract to that smaller size (which doesn't bode well for upgrades) and the others would grow to larger sizes (which DOES improve upgrade prospects) and so, if a pilot was on the street now considering this scenario, which would be the best slot to capture the best future flow slot (not to mention upgrade) among the 3 WO's ?

Remember, NONE of the WO's pilots including Envoy have specific flow rights by name, only assumed proj..........er, excuse me, "suggestions" by flow RATE. If the RATE is renegotiated to provide more balance that AAG needs to keep EACH WO stable, some will win and others will lose in such a "rebalancing". If Envoy ALPA balks and tries to replay an old hand they've already shown they don't have the stomach for, AAG plays hardball again with them. What could hardball be ?

Well, how about the very scenario you want someone to describe albeit it not for the reason YOU want, because that reason is flawed IMO ?

OK, AAG then informs Envoy that since they once again are resisting being competitive, Envoy will contract further and wa'la, the "rat" process begins again, but only from the bottom of the F/O list and just enough to get any delay in capitulation from Envoy ALPA. Suppose AAG concurrently offered any Envoy pilot a lateral move to another WO at their present pay rate ? You know........the very scheme Envoy ALPA tried to get their management and AAG to bite on recently targeting OTHER pilot groups ?

That would trim pilots nicely off the bottom who have little invested in Envoy and in fact, might not even delay their flows that much considering Envoy would contract even further (at least until Envoy ALPA once again cried "uncle"). Boy would Envoy ALPA then squeal about that, yes ? It wasn't "poaching" then according to many of you, but I'll bet you'd cry the opposite if Envoy was the target. At any rate, no captains would leave because of this and most senior F/O's won't because that poll ALREADY indicated most are too committed to reverse course, so Envoy only shrinks enough to get ALPA capitulation and we know that won't take long. Anyway, the bottom line is that I think in the future, AAG will want 3 approximately equal WO's with approximately equal flows (and identical CBA's) unless they instead move toward consolidation. But for a 3-legged stool (no pun intended :rolleyes:) like that to balance correctly, AAG cannot have lopsided costs or benefits. Since they presently ARE lopsided, that will have to be corrected either by negotiated agreement or in Envoy's case (as it is Envoy that is the one to shrink and whose flow must be diluted), pressure. I think it will be by negotiated agreement and quickly. In the situation of consolidation (less likely, but still a possibility), look for an SLI to determine flow suggestion and it likely wont be by DOH , but some component of status & category, meaning a senior F/O at PSA or Piedmont who has 2 years there, may very well be placed senior to a mid level F/O at Envoy with 3-4 years and thus flow sooner as again, none of the flows imply anything by NAME. They wont need to stop the flow, just renegotiate it and that means ultimately the 6-year suggestion of today is simply that.....a suggestion that serves a present purpose.

What makes "business sense" is what the longer term-plan for the WO's is and what APPEARS to be happening now, is NOT likely that scenario, at least IMO. I do realize some like you at Envoy truly STILL believe that you are AAG's fair-haired boy and superior to the others like the old days with AMR, but I think that is just wishful thinking.

It's nothing personal, just business.





For MikeFox who only sees one word from me, don't waste your time with the above, just read this condensed version -> blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. ;)

An EL poll, that's solid. Well, I have actual evidence from real people who did make lateral moves when things started going bad at their company. Many former Comair pilots currently work at envoy alone, pilots who left long before their actual furlough letter came when they saw the writing on the wall. Eagle/envoy lost 800 FOs between 2011 and 2014 who made lateral moves with what was going on there. We got just under 30 Republic FOs at envoy during their contract negotiations. Beside, my argument wasn't about whether those leaving would be junior or senior. (But yes, I do agree with you that the more senior a pilot is the less likely they would be to leave) My argument was that a stoppage of flow would cause an exodus, which harms the company's staffing regardless of what seniority those pilots may have had. To the company, a pilot is a pilot and trying to fix short staffing with a solution that was cause staffing to get worse doesn't make a lot of sense. Even if you attended a state school.

Are you just making things up as you go now. Envoy gets 50% of AA new hire class. period. Unless you figure out a way for hundreds of pilots to not turn 65 or lose their medicals or AA figures out a way to move planes around without pilots, they will have to hire new pilots and envoy gets 50% of those positions. Simple. Rates, suggestions... they have nothing to do with it. 50% of new hires are envoy. Simple.

I want a theorem that can be backed up with a logical arguments and actual evidence to support that theory. Not made up rates, suggestions and claims that "anything can happen". To be far, yes, ISIS could overthrow the US Government and not allow us to flow. Not likely, but since you like to deal in extreme unlikely scenarios. I concede, anything is possible. :rolleyes:

So your argument is, "But they can ask you to renegotiate your contract?" Your scenario has so many far fetched assumptions, I'm surprised it didn't involves aliens and Purple Spaghetti monsters. The likelihood of your scenario happening is about as likely as APA agreeing to relax scope so that Parker can put the Embraer 190s at the regionals. How likely is that to happen? So yes, they could ask ALPA to renegotiate the flow just as they could as APA to further relax scope. The Earth could also get hit by a meteor tomorrow. Just because something has an extreme possibility doesn't make it probable.

My scenario is no more far-fetched then the blind belief by your little group (and yes, the three of you know each other and now you have a new buddy brought in..........or is he just one of you ?) that what is happening now at Envoy IS the blueprint for the future and Envoy's upgrade and flow suggestions are something to be confident in because of that and are a rock of Gibralter. As for the E-190 issue at AA, that isn't as far-fetched as you claim either. In fact, our CBA has an avenue already available to do that, but it would require some significant twists and turns and yes, that avenue even might involve Envoy. It is simply another reason that to add that the painting you love so much now depicting the present Envoy as the Envoy of the future is no better a bet then my scenario(s).

Sorry, no group conspiracy. I do find your paranoia amusing though. Are you really so beaten down that you find it hard to believe that people can actually be happy at envoy? Anyway, whatever. The only person who is claiming iron clad assurance in envoy's upgrade time is you in an attempt to discredit the whole flow program. Its easier to deal with an adversary when they are an extremist. (which is why I find you so fun to deal with)

The only assurance I have ever affirmed is that AA pilots have to retire, AA will have to replace them, and envoy pilots will get 50% of those new hire spots. Based on current ages of those pilots and AA's hiring projections, every envoy pilot on the seniority list today will flow in about 6 years. I have never affirmed any guarantee about upgrades at envoy. But its a lot harder to radicalize me that way, isn't it. It isn't for me or you to decide for AA flow program is the wave of the future or not. It Parker's cheapest alternative to staffing his regionals. Period. That is why I am confident that HE will MAKE it work. Whatever it takes, because it will still be cheaper than paying his regional pilots a decent wage. Parker has already discussed and has been implementing his plan for addressing his staffing shortages at all his regionals (not just envoy). Beyond his diversification of feed, they are slowing the retirement of the S80 and adding more A320s to the fleet. Not stopping the flow, adding mainline aircraft. Which still works out for envoy pilots because as AA adds more aircraft, they will hire more pilots and we get half.

I don't get to decide if AA flow programs are the wave of the future. Parker seems to think so, and not to bust your bubble, his opinion matters more than yours in these matters. Delta with Endeavor, JetBlue with ExpressJet and United with Commutair seem to agree with Doug. And as much as you like to elude that if a pilot goes to an airline with a flow have locked themselves in for life, envoy pilots can still apply and interview for all the other airlines just like everyone else.

Claim whatever you wish, but I think any claims of individualism are a bunch of baloney. Several of your chums almost always arrive in short order once notified the dreaded eaglefly or other "haters" are on the prowl spewing undesirable opinions about Envoy contrary to your goals. You're here virtually daily, throughout the day and rarely miss an opportunity to make the big sell. Your latest example is right over on the "Envoy vs. Endevour" thread where you make another fine pitch and even include a link in the hope of luring others to Envoy. Hey, that's fine and if I had a problem with that, I'd make a post there saying so, but I don't and didn't, but it is yet another flawless demonstration of EXACTLY why you are on these forums doing what you're doing. I simply offer another opinion of what I think Envoy's most likely future is based on the past and present indicators and not facades or subterfuges and that obviously grinds your gears. I also just question the highly questionable when it comes to dubious claims of X or Y.

The rest of the blather above about me somehow thinking I decide what the future for Envoy is instead of Parker is as laughable, predictable, inapplicable and irrelevant as is the claim I think NO ONE is happy at Envoy, which I've never implied nor stated. You and your email/PM/cubicle chums can knock yourselves silly and twist yourselves into new shapes selling and making your own claims about Envoy's future and some of us will take positions of disagreement. Being this is clearly a paying job or assigned task to you, might I suggest you try not to get so emotional ? :rolleyes:

There's that narcissism again. Reverand eaglefly, you're not that important.

Hey, its your world, I'm just living in it. You are a keyboard god.

Your stupidest post yet. :cool:

The entire previous page I am putting into the folder,

tl;dr

Serious questions. Can someone put out there the exact %ages for flow with the 824, protected pilots, people hired before the contract ram job and those hired after the ram job. Isn't it a fairly low percent for recent new hires? Feel free to pm me the numbers.

It is in the Envoy profile on APC. Big Table near the bottom

It's a valid argument because the airline does what the airline wants to do. The contract can make it an expensive move or a realitivity cheap one, but they can a will do what they want to.
The long term interest argument is not valid. That's like claiming that you will push your car past a gas station because the gas isn't cheap enough.
Regionals don't plan past the end of the day, much less the quarter or year.

My .02..

I know most of you KNOW this, but in case you don't (maybe those new to the industry), most airlines are run with the bottom line and NOT employee welfare / longevity / retention in mind (exception SWA) -- ESPECIALLY legacies such as AA. As I see it, AAG may not stop the flow but they sure as h__ aren't going to bend over backwards to flow their cheap labor (i.e. YOU) to a much more costly position. As someone here said, it's not personal, it's business -- and that's the problem when bean counters run your company.

Want a history lesson? Read up on AA's version of "shared sacrifice" (yes I know that was "old" AMR, but if you think that mentality has changed just because AMR and US Airways are one big happy family, I think you need to open your eyes just a bit more).

Secondly, it seems to me that the dangle-the-carrot trick has worked very effectively for retention. Just keep the promises coming and people will stay. Keep making the promises, throw in some money here and there and bring on more "fresh perspectives" to replace those who find out that the promises made are not being kept, and Viola! It's all good and all you've done is swept a few crumbs off the table to whet the appetite for that juicy steak everyone thinks their going to get.

The thing is I think a lot of you guys project your own good motives on to AAG -- fine, but I don't think it's reality because AAG will NEVER think like you, do nor do as you would.

I hope you guys keep your options open is all I'm saying.

Cheers.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, this is true. AMR has a history of the front line employees getting the short end of the "shared" stick. However, all we can do is use the information at hand, and that points to a positive trend for a year or three. It all hinges on AA's continued hiring and the availability of new pilots. Those at the front of the wave will be best served, latecomers will have a long slog.

I hope that continues for the sake of everyone paying their dues there.

Cheers.

I agree that AAG never does anything out of kindness. The issue with not flowing (other than never being able to hire for their regionals) is AA will need that mainline pilot regardless of where they get him, so they must pay X anyway. They could leave you topped out at the regional level making Y and hire off the street. Or, they could flow you, making your Y pay become X, and hire a new guy at the regional who makes Z.

X+Y>X+Z

And the bonus, they can use it as a recruiting tool to keep the wholly owned feed flowing for cheap.

I understand why people are so skeptical about the 2.5, however I don't see why people are so skeptical about the 6 year.

At best right now with everyone taking the flow its at a 5.5 year rate. At worst when everyone flows is an 8ish year rate. And that is with EVERYONE taking the flow and not going anywhere else.

If you search the post history of those that are so skeptical about the 6 years flow you will find that nearly all of them are either (1) former envoy pilots that flinched during the company's hard pressure negotiation tactics and jumped ship, or are (2) PSA, RAH, TSA etc pilots or are (3) a bitter old former envoy pilot with a deep sociopathic disorder. You'll even notice that eaglefly has moved his focus of criticism away from the 6 year flow and now talks almost exclusively about the 2.5 year upgrade. He knows the 6 year flow numbers work and has been proven wrong on the subject several times. He now focuses his envoy attacks on a subject he has more likelihood to successfully argue. Except he overlooks the fact that no one, not the envoy "salesmen" or even ALPA endorses the 2.5 upgrade as plausible. The only person actually selling it, is Wilson. eaglefly just hopes that guys will focus on that one small part of the flow "promise" to discredit the entire flow program.

I make no bones about the fact that I "sell" envoy. Contrary to eaglefly's claim, I do not work in management or recruitment. I really do believe that Parker will make the flow work as advertised and that as the regional pilot staffing shortage deepens causing collapse and consolidation in the industry, envoy and the other wholly owned airlines will far the best. ( I have posted several times the basis for these convictions). I could be wrong, only time will tell. I am part of the 824. I will flow to AA soon whether they hire or not, whether envoy fails or not. It will not affect me. I sell envoy because I really believe in what I say. With a little post/profile search one can usually decipher between someone that has a legitimate criticism or gripe about envoy and those with an agenda.

Pretty generous statement implying that the worst offenders are capable of formulating any agenda other than leaping out from under their ridge at every opportunity.

Jesus.

I go away even for a couple of days and the obsession continues..........and folks, no matter WHAT you think of ME, there IS a serious sickness in play before your eyes here with this poor guy.

Even when I don't comment, in his world, it's obviously eaglefly, eaglefly, eaglefly................and more eaglefly. Everything bad about Envoy is because of eaglefly. In fact, everything apparently IS eaglefly. It seems I've permiated deep into his psyche and subconscious. I'll bet tonight at this very moment he is asleep.....actually, many nights he probably tosses and turns ruminating over eaglefly, but let's assume for arguments sake, he's asleep this time;

His significant other (or teddy bear whichever is applicable) is hearing soft moans, saying : eaglefly.............eaglefly............eeeeeeagl eflyyyyyy.

Significant other : Honey, honey..........are you OK ? Wake up.

The psychologically afflicted (groggily waking) : Huh.........Wha.........2.5 and 6, 2.5 and 6...........polly want a cra......er, uh.....what....where am I ?

Significant other : You're having a bad dream.

The psychologically afflicted : Oh..........yea, jeez. OK,.......I'll be Ok, I guess. That damn boogyman, again.

Significant other : Boogyman ?

The psychologically afflicted : Uh..........well, don't worry about it, I'll be OK.

The forum should note the PA has now added his latest false claim he attributes to me to stave off the nightly horrors in that I validate the 6 year flow claim. Never happened and review of my posts will prove that. What I DID say, was that it was too far out time wise to be of valid consideration, at least IMO.

I guess anything to keep the demons away on those dark, cold nights. :rolleyes:

Seriously, dude. You're out where the busses don't run. Get help while there's still a chance.

I haven't posted for a couple of days and you two have continued your pathetic parade, even using my name repeatedly and then have the stones to claim it's me that "uses every opportunity" ?

I think you should join you cohort for a session at the giggle academy. You both sound overdue for your next follow-up session. :cool:

Projections are nothing more than dreams that haven't come to fruition. They are not reality. Reality is your friend at Envoy who laughs out loud hysterically every time you mention 2.5/6.

2.5 certainly could happen. When I interviewed in 1999 upgrade time was 18 months. By the time I hit the line, it was at 24 months. By the time 9/11 happened, it was longer still.

Those that want to believe 2.5 is going to happen are welcome to, but I question the motives of those who sell it so hard. Quite frankly I think their hard sell job is self serving. The rabid attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with the message are telling.

Envoy isn't the worst Regional out there, and if someone wants to hire on here I'll help and support them however I can. I just think that they need to do their research and perhaps eliminate the two most positive and two most negative posters and consider "the middle" as reality.

Is there a way I can block eaglefly so I don't have to read anymore of his silly posts? I'm somewhat of a pessimist myself, but I just get pretty annoyed by his posts.

Rabid attacks? Virtually everyone but the extreme salesmen agrees that there are a lot of issues with making Ric's promised land reachable. There's no rabid attacks. The extreme salesmen are already held at arm's length around here, we all know they're just getting off on their weird propaganda mission. Many believe it is possible that Ric's world could happen, but we'll all just have to wait and see if it becomes reality. As I mentioned, all they need is one pilot to meet the goal fir it to be true, then they can blame industry factors for getting in the way.

Yes, go into his profile and it should say ignore user. And bam no crying eaglefly.

Case in point, you work for Mesa, right?

That was cute. Your still comes to the Chateau this weekend, aren't you?

Does anyone else think I might have sent eaglefly over the edge? Maybe we should call the police to do a wellness check on him. Does anyone know where his compound is?

Somewhere in Texas, but you'll never find him. The place is coated in tinfoil.

Ask his buddy ag386 to check in on him. You know ag386...the fake Envoy pilot that never was who attempted to spread lies and got eaglefly really giddy. Only to watch eaglefly go into a tailspin when he was exposed as a fraud who doesn't work at Envoy.

For a fun refresher:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...nvoy-lies.html

Things start to fall apart at post #47 when I first call him out on his lies. And then eaglefly leaps off the cliff at the last two pages.

LMFAO. That was actually pretty funny, McFly! You certainly have creative talent. I'll bet there once was a time that you were cool to hang out with. Might even be fun to go have a beer and get to know your humorous side even better. Unfortunately, I don't drink with trolls and you don't seem to have much of a life outside of your beloved chat rooms. Nevertheless, if our paths ever cross, I will certainly buy you the first beer and give you a big bro hug!

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a happy new year. May next year bring you joy, filled with thousands of pathetic posts aimed at crushing the spirits of happy and aspiring envoy pilots everywhere!

Thanks !

I laughed as much writing it as you did reading it and let's face it, the world needs a little more humor these days. ;) As for your assumptions about me, I realize bias leads some to assume things that aren't true. In fact, the point of the post (which seems to have slipped by you) was the fact I hadn't posted in a couple of days (me having no life and all), yet those who escape equal criticism from those sympathetic with their goals kept right on going in their harangue against me even in my absence. I guess, they must have more of a life then me outside this forum, yes ? :cool:


I'm crushing the spirits of happy and aspiring envoy pilots everywhere ?

That's an interesting claim. For those pilots not at Envoy and aspiring to go there, I'm not impeding them and from the looks of it, there aren't that many anyway. I've consistently said any pilot who is interested in Envoy to just do their due diligence so as to go there with their eyes OPEN, as opposed to many already there with them closed.............along with their ears. For those already at Envoy, their spirits are in far more peril from many of their fellow pilots on the forums and in person singing a more depressing tune I ever sang, but again I realize bias is a powerful motivator. As for my tune ?

It's been consistent. IMO, the 2.5 year upgrade claim doesn't hold water when to meet it, 2/3 to 3/4 of the present F/O's have to upgrade in a short 18 month window. I suppose one could go ostrich, but that's not my fault as I'm not the one repeatedly bolstering dubious claims, but even the SOS are backing away from that claim as even though it's occasionally repeated, they know too, it's extremely unlikely. As for the 6 year flow that one of the SOS (who you'll notice virtually always travel in a pack like jackals and arrive about the same time) actually claimed I validated, that is absurd, but predictable. You see, they've run out of ammo and so all that's left is personal attack, deflection and disinformation. Again, 6 year flow ?

Think about that. My question is, how can you place any weight on such a claim when it involves a regional airline whose parent won't even make any commitment to it beyond the next few months, let alone quantifying 2022 ? From what I've heard, that will be the future, i.e., a rolling short-term flying allocation commitment, so IMO, NO claim of any future specifics regarding this issue is possible. That's not my fault, but I guess denial is more comfortable place to rest your cap. What's pathetic is the level of Stockholm Syndrome mixed with Battered Wife syndrome that has warped many there (but not all) into supporting the B.S artists like the SOS here, but vilifying anyone who questions that B.S.

Hey, Merry Christmas to you..................really. May Santa and the New Year both bring you a better ability to decipher reality and B.S. so as to better control your future.