Street Captain Regionals
12-18-2015 | 06:06 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,064
Likes: 37
From: 767 Captain
And to interject another point. You've had the BEST training in the world, there's NO DOUBT. But I'm sorry, you're simply not experienced enough in the 121 world to be a CA right out of the gate. Doesn't matter if it was at a regional flying the pretend Barbie Jet with only 50 of a legacy's customers on it or a 777 with over 300 of the legacy's on it. That may be hard to hear, but coming up on 20 years in this game, that's JUST THE TRUTH.
12-18-2015 | 06:19 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
From: Grp Cpt
To parse through some of the bovine scatology of what's going here, I'll interject this;
There's really ONLY ONE TREND, it's someone that can't simply check their ego, show up ready to learn, and do a good job.
It's NOT a mil/platform/service vs. civ thing, AT ALL.
It DOESNT matter if it was a "f-teen bro" or a "tanker bubba". It DOESNT matter if it's a former corporate guy, 135 guy, single engine freight guy, or whatever demographic you can think of. NO ONE wants to hear the pilot lament about "ya know, back in the Lear/Cheifton/freight/corporate/C-one/F-teen/super/mega/stealth/hawk/D-model squadron it was like this blah blah blah......" as they're screwing up a radio call, checklist, visual approach, or whatever. And sadly, when you get hired at a legacy, LCC, SLF company, whatever, it'll be THE SAME.
Worst case;
I remember having 20 something year old FO's go on and on about how he doesn't need to upgrade, because his buddy got hired at (legacy airline) with only a few thousand hours and he thinks he will too. Maybe he will. I ALSO remember flying with a mid 30's-mid 40's fresh off the military's rectum guy going on and on about how it's a slap in the face that he's at a regional, all his "bros" are at (insert airline) and he should be too. It swings BOTH WAYS.
At least I knew I'd be saving money on the trip. LAST pilot I'm gonna be buying beer/coffee for as I slam-click.
And to interject another point. You've had the BEST training in the world, there's NO DOUBT. But I'm sorry, you're simply not experienced enough in the 121 world to be a CA right out of the gate. Doesn't matter if it was at a regional flying the pretend Barbie Jet with only 50 of a legacy's customers on it or a 777 with over 300 of the legacy's on it. That may be hard to hear, but coming up on 20 years in this game, that's JUST THE TRUTH.
As far as your q's about quality of life, etc, it's all been covered and beat to death adnauseum over the various regionals.
Try to find the one with the quickest upgrade, where you won't have to commute, etc. if you hear of one that has "staffing issues/problems", that just means you'll get to fly a lot. And usually upgrade quicker.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY, start networking your rear end off, NOW!!!!!
If you haven't already.
There's really ONLY ONE TREND, it's someone that can't simply check their ego, show up ready to learn, and do a good job.
It's NOT a mil/platform/service vs. civ thing, AT ALL.
It DOESNT matter if it was a "f-teen bro" or a "tanker bubba". It DOESNT matter if it's a former corporate guy, 135 guy, single engine freight guy, or whatever demographic you can think of. NO ONE wants to hear the pilot lament about "ya know, back in the Lear/Cheifton/freight/corporate/C-one/F-teen/super/mega/stealth/hawk/D-model squadron it was like this blah blah blah......" as they're screwing up a radio call, checklist, visual approach, or whatever. And sadly, when you get hired at a legacy, LCC, SLF company, whatever, it'll be THE SAME.
Worst case;
I remember having 20 something year old FO's go on and on about how he doesn't need to upgrade, because his buddy got hired at (legacy airline) with only a few thousand hours and he thinks he will too. Maybe he will. I ALSO remember flying with a mid 30's-mid 40's fresh off the military's rectum guy going on and on about how it's a slap in the face that he's at a regional, all his "bros" are at (insert airline) and he should be too. It swings BOTH WAYS.
At least I knew I'd be saving money on the trip. LAST pilot I'm gonna be buying beer/coffee for as I slam-click.
And to interject another point. You've had the BEST training in the world, there's NO DOUBT. But I'm sorry, you're simply not experienced enough in the 121 world to be a CA right out of the gate. Doesn't matter if it was at a regional flying the pretend Barbie Jet with only 50 of a legacy's customers on it or a 777 with over 300 of the legacy's on it. That may be hard to hear, but coming up on 20 years in this game, that's JUST THE TRUTH.
As far as your q's about quality of life, etc, it's all been covered and beat to death adnauseum over the various regionals.
Try to find the one with the quickest upgrade, where you won't have to commute, etc. if you hear of one that has "staffing issues/problems", that just means you'll get to fly a lot. And usually upgrade quicker.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY, start networking your rear end off, NOW!!!!!
If you haven't already.
12-18-2015 | 06:22 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Well, now that we've got the negative examples of military pilots transitioning to 121, here are some positives that I always appreciate when flying with them.
Military pilots usually know the plane backwards and forwards. The systems knowledge is useful to diagnose problems and to make better decisions. They also are good with charts/graphs/etc so depending on the jet you fly at a 121, that's also extremely helpful. I also appreciate that military pilots generally understand the importance of doing things the right way and not taking shortcuts. They're predicable and reliable once they settle into 121.
That's been my experience anyway, so another 2˘ to the pile. Every group has bad apples, but I always look forward to flying with military pilots.
Military pilots usually know the plane backwards and forwards. The systems knowledge is useful to diagnose problems and to make better decisions. They also are good with charts/graphs/etc so depending on the jet you fly at a 121, that's also extremely helpful. I also appreciate that military pilots generally understand the importance of doing things the right way and not taking shortcuts. They're predicable and reliable once they settle into 121.
That's been my experience anyway, so another 2˘ to the pile. Every group has bad apples, but I always look forward to flying with military pilots.
12-18-2015 | 06:37 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,142
Likes: 4
From: FIRE ALPA
My sim partner was a KC-135 guy that had been flying drones for the last 4 years. He was an excellent stick and rudder right from the start (probably better than I showed even after years in the plane) His biggest issues in order seemed to be,
#1, justifying being there when he saw his paycheck of about $700 takehome twice a month. (he was an O-5 making a lot more than that in the AF)
#2, The extra "outside the cockpit" considerations, such as communicating with OPS, Dispatch, Flight Attendants, ect.
#3, Dealing with flows instead of everything being read/do.
#4, Passengers that didn't obey orders.
Overall a few months on line and he'd be fine, but no way should he (nor did he want or expect) to be a captain day one.
He was here under a year and bailed to an all freight, heavy jet operator. (home virtual basing and see #1 and 4)
#1, justifying being there when he saw his paycheck of about $700 takehome twice a month. (he was an O-5 making a lot more than that in the AF)
#2, The extra "outside the cockpit" considerations, such as communicating with OPS, Dispatch, Flight Attendants, ect.
#3, Dealing with flows instead of everything being read/do.
#4, Passengers that didn't obey orders.
Overall a few months on line and he'd be fine, but no way should he (nor did he want or expect) to be a captain day one.
He was here under a year and bailed to an all freight, heavy jet operator. (home virtual basing and see #1 and 4)
12-18-2015 | 06:42 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,283
Likes: 103
It's about attitude man. Nobody wants to sit next to the guy crying that's it's not fair, or that he SHOULD be somewhere just because his buddies had better luck than him.
"Moonchild, hear the mandrake scream"
12-18-2015 | 06:54 AM
#47
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
To quantify, as both military and 121:
Pros:
Mil guys will learn the aircraft very well and very quickly.
Mil guys can fly very well, have great SA, and can make great decisions (relative to their experience).
Mil guys are great at the flying aspect, but I would say that the actual flying part is about 40-60% of the job and management is the rest.
When I started at the regionals I had 750hrs (mil TT r-ATP). First day of OE was 5 legs ending in Mexico. I did fine, the check airman even said he thought we would have to canx a leg because I would be so far behind, but I wasn't. I also wasn't the captain I was an FO. That being said, 2 years later I still wonder if I am ready for the left seat.
Cons:
You typically have 30 mins once you get on board the aircraft to plan, set up and release the break. In the military times are important, but not always the driving factor.
You operate with the fuel dispatch gives you. You can't just throw on another few thousand pounds because the weather isn't great.
Winter time operations in the 121 world takes time to understand and get used to.
Mil guys are used to 1-2 flights a day, doing 4-5 does wear on you and attention to detail after 3 flights starts to degrade.
Taxiing at large airports, I've been a regional guy for 2 years and I still hate going into ORD.
Customer service is a whole different conversation.
I hope this helps to highlight some areas that are different from mil flying that needs time to learn. This is not all of the problem areas, just a small list.
Pros:
Mil guys will learn the aircraft very well and very quickly.
Mil guys can fly very well, have great SA, and can make great decisions (relative to their experience).
Mil guys are great at the flying aspect, but I would say that the actual flying part is about 40-60% of the job and management is the rest.
When I started at the regionals I had 750hrs (mil TT r-ATP). First day of OE was 5 legs ending in Mexico. I did fine, the check airman even said he thought we would have to canx a leg because I would be so far behind, but I wasn't. I also wasn't the captain I was an FO. That being said, 2 years later I still wonder if I am ready for the left seat.
Cons:
You typically have 30 mins once you get on board the aircraft to plan, set up and release the break. In the military times are important, but not always the driving factor.
You operate with the fuel dispatch gives you. You can't just throw on another few thousand pounds because the weather isn't great.
Winter time operations in the 121 world takes time to understand and get used to.
Mil guys are used to 1-2 flights a day, doing 4-5 does wear on you and attention to detail after 3 flights starts to degrade.
Taxiing at large airports, I've been a regional guy for 2 years and I still hate going into ORD.
Customer service is a whole different conversation.
I hope this helps to highlight some areas that are different from mil flying that needs time to learn. This is not all of the problem areas, just a small list.
12-18-2015 | 06:57 AM
#48
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
The reason I would wait a year or two (depending on the individual) to upgrade to CA is becaue of experience in the airline system.
I have seen a few CA that upgrade too soon. They are not confident and that manifests its self in bad ways. The expeiance will make you cool, calm, and relaxed. All good traits in a Captain.
Think of a year in the right seat as attaching down hill. It gives you a great advantage.
I have seen a few CA that upgrade too soon. They are not confident and that manifests its self in bad ways. The expeiance will make you cool, calm, and relaxed. All good traits in a Captain.
Think of a year in the right seat as attaching down hill. It gives you a great advantage.
12-18-2015 | 07:00 AM
#49
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 38
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I flew with many military guys (IPs etc) and all were great FOs, without exception (in my case). They all had great attitudes, and were MUCH more proficient than the typical 1500 hr instructor new hire (on average/my experience, of course).
121 is a different gig and will take about a year to get comfortable, regardless of your background.
Another constraint to consider is that most airlines have (or did) a TT requirement in the 2500-3000 range.
Find somewhere that you will be comfortable building some 121 time (ie no commute) and I'm sure a major will be calling before you have the seniority/time to upgrade, if that's your goal.
121 is a different gig and will take about a year to get comfortable, regardless of your background.
Another constraint to consider is that most airlines have (or did) a TT requirement in the 2500-3000 range.
Find somewhere that you will be comfortable building some 121 time (ie no commute) and I'm sure a major will be calling before you have the seniority/time to upgrade, if that's your goal.
12-18-2015 | 07:07 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,283
Likes: 103
For a civilian with a limited GA background and not much time experience, seems as if it takes about 300 hours/6 months to get comfortable and the learning curve to start to shallow out. Just an approximation. Maybe "great", maybe not. But just to start to feel comfortable. As in, "back in the day", coming of an 8 hour RR overnight, get in plane, do all the first flight stuff, etc with limited, if any errors/mistakes, etc before blasting off into a 5-6-7 leg/14-16 hour duty day. Just as an example.
A mil guy it can just depend. Were they a reserve/guard "baby" with just UPT and platform qualification and some limited GA thrown in with not even 500TT? Could be up to that 300/6 number. If they were an AD type that was recently separated, even if non current it could be much shorter. But again, it's all about attitude.
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