I agree, with the exception of the military stuff. You don't need a college degree to be an infantryman, but you do to be an infantry officer. When you sign your ass over to Uncle Sam, he doesn't usually have much to judge you on... A degree is a good way to start.

As far as airline jobs go, I can't imagine how 4 years drinking and studying art history could possibly prepare a person to safely fly more than 4 years welding, or flight instructing, or selling insurance, or whatever else could. By the time you sign your ass over to an airline, you've built up a resume, hours, and a safety record.

 

I used to think that college degrees were useless for airline pilots. Then I joined APC, and based on some of the posts here, I think a few posters flex in the mirror and tell themselves, "I are college!"

 

You're right you do have to have a degree to be a infantry officer. I will not argue with that and would advocate for it. You are also right that when you sign your ass over to Uncle Sam he doesn't have much to judge you on... Which is exactly why they break you down and train you to do exactly what they want how they want (concerning an enlisted man who does not have the degree).

The situation is different when considering officer's though because there is the element of leadership that comes with the vocation. In order to lead effectively IMHO one has to be instructed in and have developed leadership skills. Now before I go on let me just say that Officer's have to have these skills upon entry unlike an airline captain who would have learned and developed this during his/her time as a first officer and course of their career.

So when you consider an officer you have to look at their schooling. A lot of people who become one go to school at West Point, Annapolis, the AirForce Academy etc. The ones that don't do that become involved in some ROTC program and still the ones that don't do that go through OCS. All of which are designed to instruct/train men and women how to lead as well as give military specific instruction.

I will say this though...that brand new infantry officer draws a lot from the more experienced enlisted SGT. when it comes to completing the mission which builds his own experience.....Anyway it wasn't my intent to hijack the thread. I apologize if I offended anyone. I'm not even sure this last paragraph is entirely relevant.

 

As an 8 year staff sergeant (infantry, ranger school graduate, combat experience etc) who worked with plenty of cherry ass LTs I have to disagree. Experience is king. A degree doesn't mean squat.


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QUOTE : "As an 8 year staff sergeant (infantry, ranger school graduate, combat experience etc) who worked with plenty of cherry ass LTs I have to disagree. Experience is king. A degree doesn't mean squat."


^^^^ Amen to that. ^^^^

I'm an ERAU MBA, Navy ATC (carrier and shore-based), and got all my ratings the hard way ... I paid for them. Never been a CFI. I can honestly say that the college didn't mean jack when it came to flying airplanes. All it shows is that you aren't a dummy and have at least enough brains to comprehend higher education. As far as how or whether any of it might possibly cross over into the airplane, I'd say that it would depend on the person. After all, aviation history is full of tragic stories about very intelligent people doing very dumb things in airplanes. I would place things like self-control, integrity, conservative decision making, and EXPERIENCE way,way,way above a college level education in contributing to a long, successful and safe career in aviation. The biggest emphasis being put on experience.

So, rather than worrying or debating about whether, or not, the guy up on the flight deck should have a diploma, how about considering the fact that he/she may only have about 1200 hours a/o only about 25 of multi in a real airplane? Not to mention the ridiculously low actual instrument requirements.

When I started flying 121 I had about 2500 total, 550 multi, 700 turbine, and 200 actual instrument. I thought THAT was low, and it is considering the fact that a 121 operator wouldn't have even looked twice at that until relatively recently. I don't know about you, but the idea of putting my children in a jet airliner piloted by a kid with 25 hours of multi doesn't sit well. And, it shouldn't with anyone else either.

So much for the irreplaceable value of experience, right? It got traded for a freakin' degree in basket weaving.

 

Damn, I guess times and expectations have changed in the last 15 years....

Back just before 9/11 the average turbo prop regional wanted 900/100 just to apply...places with jets typically wanted 1500/100...

I went to school, worked full time, and flight trained at a local FBO.. No help from parents, all student loans for school, and CC's for flight training... Bartended whenever possible.. Basically did anything to get by. Now these new guys are complaining because they aren't at Delta or AA 5 yrs after their first flight... 10 yrs ago the only guys with a shot at SWA,JB or AirTran ( only companies hiring) were 10 yr regional Captains that had atleast 1000 TPIC.

I did as much online course work as possible and night classes so I could fly/credit 6-8 hrs of Flt/Grnd training a day when I CFI'd to make ends meet....found descent deals on multi time when I could and would travel to get it. At that time Florida had a few places that you could do the "safety pilot" deal to reduce costs.

Hired at a small turbo prop regional at just over 900 hrs. Took a few classes so the student loan payments weren't due. After that deferred my student loan payments for around a year ( maximum time).

Found my way to a jet regional at their minimums. Crashed where I could, did the airport sleepover, commuted to my hometown when possible...did whatever possible to get by..

11 years later finally got hired by a Legacy, 3 years after that finally debt free..

Moral of the story....15 years ago you still needed between 900-1500 hrs to get hired....pay was a bit less, and there were no Legacy expectations because everyone was furloughing

 

They're still showing up for class. I don't know where they find them. One things for sure, they are older. Younger is definitely the minority. From what I gather from new hires, nobody is training anymore at the local schools and the college programs are getting even more expensive.

 

Correct. Also, however honorable you feel it may have been, taking on so much debt while expecting mediocre pay for years and no guaranteed progression while in a bad economy is a gamble that most people and their families wouldn't deem wise. I've lost a few young students that way because they lost their parents' support. They just couldn't see light at the end of the tunnel. Also remember that the cost of flight training, education, and fuel has increased significantly.

Now that there is some movement in the ranks, people might ask about (or complain about) how quickly progression might be obtained at certain places so they can justify their investment, or just so they can move on. I'm not sure what's so bad about that.

 

It's a different generation nowadays... Most younger pilots I see that get into aviation have a lot of help and support from their parents. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just different than many who started out 10 or 15 years ago.

I didn't experience the industry the way many of you did back then. But this is a second career for me. My first career path started when I was young. I had no support from my parents and I apprenticed for a full year with ZERO pay (industry norm) and putting in 14 hour work days. I lived on friends couches and ate off the dollar menu at McDonalds. But you know what? I wanted it bad enough that I made it work. And then when that industry started changing (for better and worse) I saw young kids come in and essentially have it handed to them compared to what I experienced. And it will make you a little bitter.

Times have changed and so has the industry. Change is a part of life. And every generation complains about the one that comes behind it in just about every facet of life. One day the young kids around now will be the old guys, and they'll tell the new guys stories of flying with the old regional CAs who were screwed by the industry and bad timing. And so on and so forth.

 

^^^^

And you can bet, no matter what hand we were dealt, that we'll believe the next generation has it easier than we did.