Alpa has dropped the ball again with Pinnacle
 

Q400's for Colgan? Thats great, good for them. It has been a month now and there has yet to be an official response from our union on whether a scope clause was violated with the purchase of colgan and the awarding of these Q400's. Now I know that a bunch of you will come on here and tell me it takes time and they are doing their research and all this stuff, but the truth is is that there has not even been a response, nothing. I think they are too busy inflating giant rats to deal with the facts. I dont pay 2% to do informational pickets, I pay 2% to my union for them to help me in times like these, and in my humble opinion, I am getting ripped off right now. Even our own DTW LEC has expressed anger as to not having a response yet.

I challenge someone in ALPA to grow a pair and take care of business.

Hey, its ok. The press release states that Continental will foot the bill for all 15 Q400s. Pinnacle still has your money and they better give it to you, however we wouldn't mind a raise either.

Our talks resume tommorrow.. Supposedly an update on friday- I have high hopes and low expectations! We will just have to see what happens. Pncl is still hiring and colgan isnt taking PNCL flying. I know that this could just be the beginning, but these talks are the first since this whole Colgan purchase- this is the time that management needs to step up and do what they say, nobody will ever trust management but if we get some additional scope and they work with us towards our contract I think that will alleviate alot of tension within the "family".

First of all, I am hoping the union proves me wrong with the whole scope thing and we are able to merge the lists. If they do that, I will eat my words.
As far as our contract negotiations go, I respect your optimism that i once had, but I gaurantee you that friday you will read an update that says no progress was made and there are no further dates scheduled.

Not the same release I saw...from the AP:
MEMPHIS, Tenn. (AP) -- Pinnacle Airlines Corp. said Monday it will fly 15 turboprop planes for Continental Airlines Inc. under a new regional flying agreement.
Financial terms of the 10-year deal were not disclosed. Under the agreement, Pinnacle will buy the aircraft, and Continental will pay for fuel and handle scheduling

Don't forget that P.T.,the great deceiver, still loves you and always wants you to follow the "Guiding Principles."

You're an idiot.

Just because you don't see it on the outside doesn't mean things aren't going on behind the scenes. If you're so concerned, call your MEC, and your status reps. That will accomplish much more than bitching on APC.

Since when is a union a secrecy? Why should stuff have to go behind the scenes? I have called my MEC and their response is, We are still evaluating what has happened.

Pinnacle pilots will never get ahead because of the comment that you made about still hiring. There are 250 hour pilots running in there for jobs so they can build flight time. The only way to get control of managment is for people to refuse to take the job until they have a better contract. When the company does not have enough pilots then they will have to do something.

I cannot refute that fact. Heck with 1000 hours it was hard to look away from a quick upgrade and a domicile at home, but its not just pncl hiring the low time guys with a pulse- how can the industry as a whole raise the standard? This is a war that alpa was not prepared to fight and its the first time for there to be such a rush into the industry. Has there ever been a time where someone can say- "hey, let me take my intro flight today" and 6 months later a phone rings and says "mr/mrs. XXX, AAA company invites you to a new hire class next monday". And its nothing against ATP or gulfstream- as much as I did not feel pfj was my option, for many it makes sense and it gets them into the right seat of a 121 operator faster than any other way. But until there is either an incident with a low time pilot to blame at the regional level, or there is a more competitive supply of pilots causing more time to get to a regional the low time pilots are going to keep pay and QOL lower. After all, every carrier can stand up and not hire low timers, but a new one will pop up, operate it cheaper with low timers, and take flying from everyone else. Classic race to the bottom. As strange as it may sound, I almost wish the FAA would make an SIC requirement just as there is a PIC requirement- 500 hours at a bare minimum. Even just a few months instructing or banner towing, or pipeline patrol, or any other job that is entry level and a time builder will instill the idea that the next step (the first REAL airline job) should pay more with better QOL. I made more instructing part time in college than I do as a reserve holder flying a 50 seat jet. If nobody ever experienced something below a regional level they have no reference of the fact that each job to a bigger and faster machine requires a better work incentive- QOL/pay/benefits.


*you can call this my rant of the week- sorry to any offended, I am not poking at any company or background*

I think that is very accurate. Especially the part about the possibility of the FAA imposing SIC minimums. You know management would fight that idea though. They would not be able to find all that cheap labor
that they love so much.

I don't think it would change anything. You'd just have 1,000 hour cfi's or 1,500 hour cfi's rushing to cheap pay in hopes of moving on.

It doesn't matter what their total time is when they start. Labor is going to be cheap as long as there is a steady supply of it.

The good news is that regionals are having a harder and harder time finding pilots. They've pretty much lowered the mins down to a CMEL license, so all that's left to do is increase pay.

Simple supply and demand.

While supply and demand has this industry in a chokehold, the problem is that people still need a few things to get to a right seat interview. You need MONEY, and a good bit of it- you need instructors to teach those students, Where are they? O wait, RIGHT SEAT JOBS! You also need the time to go from ads and ideas of $250K a year airline jobs to a CMEL- which is 6months even at the fastest pilot pump (ATP or equivalent). So there are a few HUGE issues that keep this industry in a lurch. There is a definate problem with management running the train on the pilot groups. I have friends that are sitting at 600/100 or better and they cannot get interviews because all these regionals (including mine:mad: ) are booked solid with ATP, RAA, etc. b/c of the nice kickback they get for actually hiring the guys. It would be my hope (for previous reasons stated) that I think the FAA should have 121 SIC mins. i wouldnt make them too restrictive- say 500TT, 250PIC, 50night,25act, 75xc, but enough to make these academies have to at least employ the applicants as instructors. The shame of it is that the industry will have to see a safety issue in order for this to happen- look at the FAA's past, the vast majority of regs and limitations comes from the deaths of aviators and civilians (as sad as it is:( ). However you cut the mustard there is a shortage in supply, and a constant reminder (with each airplane order) that more pilots are needed. Pay /benefits/ and overall QOL need to be improved to keep this industry a good one. The current path is not one that promotes a good career in terms beyond a W-2. Days off, scheduling's ability to jerk the chain, retirement, and health care benefits are huge items that need to be addressed. As much as everyone plans to go on to a major carrier, many will find a happy median and comfortable spot at a regional and stay there- that fact should not be met with the realization that all you worked for has just left you alone, in debt, and unhappy in life. The days of $79.99 round trip tickets needs to end- sure its great, but I am willing to bet a hell of alot more than $79.99 on the fact that if this industry continues and we have 23 year old 1500 hour captains, and 21 year old 250 hour first officers something will happen to some innocent people. Would you pay a few dollars more to know the guys up front are more experienced and enjoy coming to work- aka they "care"? Would you want your family to be on a plane with a 1500 captain and a 250 hour FO? I have nothing against age- I am looking to make captain at 23- but I also expect to have a bit more experience than 1500 hours. I am approaching 1100 now and every flight I learn something, even a couple times I have saved the captain's and my ass from a possible violation. At PCL there was the 3000 hour min to capt- I am a firm believer in that. I have flown with new 3000 hour guys, and even to them some things are still new. ALPA needs to step up and do things not just to keep getting 2% of our dismal paychecks. We need higher standards for both our enjoyment and furthurance in the career, but also for safety. No matter what- safety comes first right? I see it as coming second to a significant crash due to inexperience and corporate greed. Look at the comair crash- I dont call those guys inexperienced, but work rules killed 50 people, and -by all accounts- a great captain and family man and ruined the FO's life- he has to live with the fact that 49 died, why? pilot error? sure, you keep me up all night and I cant blame him. These guys were not reckless, they were following their ALPA contract, but how many people can stay up and operate a $20M piece of machinery after being up all night? I was lucky in college to get the coffee pot to work in the morning after an all nighter! I have "high speeds" at PCL but after the comair crash I make sure I get at least an afternoon nap of a few hours as well as at least a 3 hour nap in the middle of my "continous duty". It is time for ALPA to do something. I have seen no effort on there part- other than inflating a giant rat that to me shows no significance! Ok.. fingers are sore now!;)

Here is the thing guys. pt and his buddies have been to busy dealing with nwa, and colgan to even negotiate with us, hence the fact there have been no negotiations. They haven't been interested in it, and until now they haven't cared. I really do believe that they want to have a contract soon with the pilots. Now whether it is an acceptable on is another question. Hopefully they will finally sit down and negotiate instead throwing the last and final offer at us. The flight attendants we have been flying with for the last couple weeks said "I hate to say it but our contract is a big improvement." i would have to agree with them. of course that is just looking at the highlights of the contract. company pays for uniforms and luggage, they get on time incentive bonuses, more days off, Way better pay, different reserve rules (FA's currently can be on reserve for 20hrs!! hahaha). so they seem pretty excited. hopefully i will feel the same way on friday.

Yeah, best of luck to you guys. All of us at Colgan are hoping that you guys get an awesome contract that sets the bar much higher. We need something to shoot for when we step up to the table after getting organized! ;)

..right now, you don't even meet 135 mins at 1100 hrs. and you REALLY don't have a clue...come back in another 5000 hrs, few types, and 15 yrs...jeeze.#$&*!!

:eek: Great Post, these things are exactly what needs to happen in this industry. You really don't have to pay any dues to get to a regional these days, at least the ****tier ones out there. This is effecting supply and demand. They don't have enough pilot's, why not just lower the minimums. Don't have enough captains... lower the minimums. Pay does not increase like it should with a shortage of pilots. This is something that needs to be addressed for safety reasons and to make this industry a better place. I think we are all going to be flying RJ's for longer than we think. unfortunately I am flying routes that were and should be mainline everyday.

CFI's would demand more because of the time they already invested in aviation. There wouldn't be as many of the academy pilots because now it would take them more than 6 months to go form 0 to RJ FO... Simple Supply and Demand, pay would have to go up.

Well I obviously lit you off like a bottle rocket but at what point in my ramble did I say anything about my long track record in the industry? did you see me in favor of low experience? I am trying to raise the bar, and at 1100 hours the bar is low in my book, but thats quite a bit different than the 250 hours we are discussing, and the fact that for 750 hours I was at a level over the training environment and below a regional- cause I was "time building" while finishing school. During that time I found I was making crap for wages (but they are still about what I make flying a 50 seat jet now) and I learned SOO much in the time that the ink dried on my temp until I showed up at a 121 ground school. These lessons are things that you may or may not see in a jet, but it was flying back to the basics. Flying "raw data" without a flight director, having to make PIC decisions about "can I go" "is that safe" "do we need to stop and get gas cause these winds and vectors around weather were not planned" "is that weather a factor"- things that you would experience in 6 months of instructing or doing any other job where you are the one signing for the airplane. And frankly 15 years right now doesnt matter in this argument b/c 15 years ago this problem wasnt even thought up, this is fresh to me, just as it is you. 15 years of flying is great, but a regional race to the bottom only lit off with the RJ's as of the late few years- I would say 1999 but I am not an aviation historian by any means. Correct me if I am wrong, but years ago a regional was a jetstream, beech, or saab- where you needed 2000+ to get an interview. I commend someone on 5000 hours, many types, and 15 years in the industry- currently I look in the left seat and try to learn as much from that guy/gal as I can during my trip with him/her. The problem we are discussing is when you look to the left, see your reflection in the mirror and realize that you have never been in this situation and arent sure what to do because you just meet the FAA's ATP mins and havent dealt with things that captains have already seen over and over again from back in the days of being an FO with 2500-3000 hours. Years ago you would still be hoping to get an interview soon for the right seat! Please, correct me if I am wrong- I hate to give out incorrect facts and will gladly apologize and correct anything said in eir, but these are the facts as I have seen them in my limited time in the industry. ;)

So what's wrong with that? It takes time to review legal and other ramifications of the Colgan purchase that came out of left field and and a new plane purchase.

Things don't always happen on your timetable. If there is a scope violation you will find out about it soon enough.

Relax.

In 1988, Braniff had a 1/8 page ad on the front page of my local paper's employment section. 250 hours, Commercial, Inst, Multi. Of course they closed their doors shortly afterwards.....I'm neither affirming nor denying any connections to the current state of affairs.

(BTW; Due to that ad, I thought "wow, I'll be an airline pilot in no time!" That's when I took my first lesson. :D)

Well, I couldn't possibly be more upset with the Pinnacle MEC. I've just heard that they plan on filing a lawsuit over the q400 purchase, right while Colgan's in the middle of a union drive. Nice f'n move! We're out bustin' our humps sellin' the pilot group on the advantages of ALPA and how if we join together with the pinnacle ALPA we'll all be protected from a potential whipsaw and what does pinnacle ALPA do? Start a f'n whipsaw! How do you expect Colgan guys to vote in a group to represent them that is attacking them?

Don't you think it would make MUCH more sense to give Colgan the chance to organize. Then if we didn't vote in the union, then you can file suit? Instead, you're gonna alienate the Colgan pilot group, cause them to vote against ALPA, and then have PT smiling his way to the bank with a perfect whipsaw in place as one group fights against the other.

This is just the dumbest, most ill-timed B F'n S I've ever seen! :mad:

They are suing because their contract supposedly states they will fly all new aircraft. I'd imagine if Colgan pilots were to join forces with PCL through ALPA, any such lawsuit would be dropped. Any such lawsuit is an attack at PCL management, not Colgan pilots. But, that's just the way I read it.

Without any such promise from ALPA, what do you think the reaction from Colgan will be? I've already heard rumblings like "Oh yeah, like I'm gonna vote them in now, so they can take the Q400 and hand it over to PCL."

They're gonna kill the Colgan union and set up a beautiful whipsaw for PT.

It would make much more sense to wait until after the union effort to make any moves such as this. Then the Colgan pilots would either have a union, and we could work together for our mutual best interests, or Colgan would have declined a union and deserve whatever they get.

But I'm positive in the absense of any antagonism like this from the Pinnacle pilot union the union would pass. Now I'm not so sure? :(

Where did you get this info? i have checked our website for official union info and i see nothing about it on there.

It was communicated to our organizing committee from the PCL MEC chairman.

Well If I was at Pinnacle I would be quite angry that the non-union pilots get the Q400, they are going to be flying them for far below what they should be getting paid, do you think management is stupid? Why have Pinnacle guys fly the Q's when they know Colgan pilots will be more than willing to fly them for peanuts, literally

I have a couple friends there at PNCL that are starting to feel that way...

Don't blame em, I can imagine its going to get ugly, especially since Pinnacle bought them, not only do they get the new planes, but they get more flying out of the deal, seems backasswards if ya ask me

Saab, you feel so sympathetic to PNCL right now, but what will you feel if they take some XJT flying?

They're getting quite close to Continental now with this Colgan stuff. Not to mention their pay is far inferior to XJT. They could operate XJT routes for 25% less than what XJT charges.

Just something to think about. Maybe I'm the only one who sees this. You better hope your branded stuff takes off.

Yes that would pi@@ me off as well, but what I am talking about is differnt, they bought COLGAN, COLGAN didnt buy PINNACLE, they should get the flying, would make sense wouldnt it?

...no saab, the Pinnacle Airlines Corporation, "an airline holding company", which also happens to be the parent company of Pinnacle airlines, bought Colgan.

Just where do you think the $$$ to buy those Q400s is coming from?

The answer? From the profits gained by the work of Pinnacle Airlines employees and crewmembers.

thank you, at least someone else on here has a clue

prove it then smart arse...

Well it's a good thing nobody asked you then. Go crawl back in your SJS hole. I'm sick of reading all your whining and bashing already... :-)

listen, i agree with you with the flying, union, etc...but the business world is a little bigger than tha....

then don't read my posts.................. have fun doin the colgan hahaha

funny, especially coming from a guy who started at colgan...and yeah, we know you broke the contract, etc, etc, and got out...but you were there, and i'm pretty sure you weren't blindfolded or drugged to go there...so, it's not giving you much credibility...i have to assume that a smart guy like you KNEW what he was getting into before accepting that job...you know, reseaarching the company, etc...so get off your high horse jackorse!

alrighty then, and no I didnt know what to expect I don't regret going, but aren't sad I left. Anyway, good luck at Colgan