Torn over a lateral move from XJet
 

Disclosure: I created a new account for this post to enhance anonymity.

I'm feeling torn while considering a lateral move.

I just started at L-Xjt. Only 2 months on the line. I came here because I'm local to EWR and I had always heard great things about the contract and such. So far it has been a pleasant place to work and I do like the work rules, including things like the downtown hotels on long overnights. The training was excellent and I like that I have that on my resume. I was also lured in with the promise that things would improve drastically with the new pilot pay and CPP pulling away captains to allow upgrades (the instructors were telling us we'd be captains in 2 to 4 years).

I'm now seeing a bleaker picture from the inside. There hasn't been a vacancy bid of any kind in 5 months. We keep losing planes. Relatively few captains are getting hired through the CPP (I heard only 40% success rate). Several I've flown with have no plans to leave at all short of a shutdown.

I'm considering a lateral move and am looking at Envoy, RAH, or Endeavor. But is it a jerk move for me to bail from a company so soon after starting? Does it look bad on a resume? I'd also feel let-down since this was traditionally the place I wanted to go.

And anyone care to share their personal perspectives on these companies?

Envoy: New pay package is really great, as is the flow to American. But can reserves who want to fly expect to actually fly and break guarantee? The $20000 up front will be a great help for me, but to do what I want to do financially I'd need to be doing better than min guarantee and no per diem. My friend who works there has been a good salesman and is a believer in 2 to 3 year upgrade and 6 to 7 year flow. He tells me just to maintain the fleet with the planned flow they'd need to upgrade 300+ a year. The LGA base is good news but LGA/JFK can be a brutal drove from NJ. I've heard reserve has been running long but would drop with movement.

Endeavor: Heard it's a much better place than it used to be, great financial incentives like Envoy, NY base, possibly very short upgrade (one new captain I know there believes street captains are a possibility sometime next year). I've heard minimal reserve time.

RAH: Also heard it's vastly better than it used to be, exiting BK in a stable position, ability to be EWR based, dropping upgrade times, though they don't offer nearly the bonus money that the above are, and no flow or interview programs. I've likewise heard minimal reserve time in the junior bases.

I'm so torn. Any thoughts?

Do what is best for you and your family. Period.

You can always explain why you left a regional after a few months, especially one that will probably not be in existence down the road.

I think it's a wise move and easy to explain. You are being proactive by getting out now and not delaying your career. Others are invested and just won't leave as easily as you could.


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If you're unhappy, and you think this will help you and your family. Just leave. I'm currently in the process of it myself. I've been seeing a lot of lateral movement lately. You're not the only one doing it.

If I was a Newark local and I was at ExpressJet I think I would stay there and try to make the best of it. Just be patient.

The way I see it is that EWR is a junior, but solid base for United and ExpressJet so chances of it going away, or you getting displaced out of it anytime soon are small. Also they have a good contract. Sure, you wil not get any PIC time at ExpressJet, and you should have known that, but I just don't see that as a good enough reason to make a lateral move so soon in the industry, especially if you work for a good regional with a lot of history in your home town. Also, whie ExpressJet fleet will continue to shrink, I doubt they will dissapear anytime soon.

Focus on the other perks that ExpressJet has, like being one of the favorite regionals for United to pull pilots from. I wouldn't start chasing the PIC time because if things don't work out as expected I would personally regret it greatly.

Enjoy the nice contract, the drive to work, and have a good time on the line.

Looks like good points from both sides of the coin here. Whatever you choose to do, try not to chase the $$$ or the quick upgrade. As many posters have said before me, QOL should be the most important factor in choosing a regional.

I wouldn't call what he's doing "chasing the upgrade". He's not picking one specific place that has super short upgrade times and going for just that reason. He will likely never upgrade at express jet. If he's making a move to improve his career overall then I would say go for it.
Bottom line there is so much movement at other regionals there's no reason to not be apart of it. Express jet and awac are such great companies but how could anyone honestly recommend someone go there or stay there? If you're less than 2-3 years in get out for sure and if you're more you should still be strongly considering it.

In today's pilot marketplace , lateral moves seem to be more prevalent. Bases are important for sure, but grooming yourself for the eventual move to a major is far more important than a short time at a base you don't want to be. Recruiters at the regionals(I was one at eagle years ago), are not going to question your loyalty, but applaud your decision to advance your career . Regional's know you are trying to get in and get out . If I were making a lateral move , everything else being close to equal , I would go where there is a flow. The upgrade time/flow numbers espoused by envoy may not be totally accurate , but there are a few hundred captains leaving every year, as long as hiring continues at AA. Although not likely to be hired off the street to AA , (from envoy),nothing precludes you from applying to everyone else. Having a flow number to AA, weather it is 6 years away or 10, is better (in my opinion), than having to apply and hope like the other 18,000 regional guys. While I won't comment on the good/ bad argument for envoy, most regionals are very similar in pay/working condition , or if they aren't , they probably will be soon.
Good luck with your decision .
Joe

I think I would try to stay 6 months to a year just so you don't look flaky.

I would stick out the Holidays.. see what the new year, "rings". If XJT still is loosing airplanes next year. Then. Make the move. But i wouldn't leave only to commute somewhere.. im not sure who else has a EWR base. I made a lateral move about 14 years ago. (After 5 years at a regional) worked out for me.. if your asking this question only 2 months in... then i think you already know the answer...

Couple of thoughts...

Do you see yourself being at a regional for at least another 5 years? If so, why not go to a wholly owned with a flow? If you think due to pilot shortage issues that there is no way you will be at a regional in 5 years, maybe its best to stay.

Another thought, if you are considering a lateral move, why not first try and get on with an LCC such as spirit, allegiant, or frontier? Regional FO's are definitely getting hired at LCCs.

Final thought is a company like RAH has shareholders to be accountable too, whereas a wholly owned carrier is just a cost center to the parent airline. As a result, the wholly owned regional can continue to see pay and benefits increase as the pilot supply gets tighter and tighter.

Wow, very polite and balanced responses. Is this really APC? lol.

EWR is super convenient, but I've done the drive to LGA/JFK and it's actually easy when there's no traffic. There would be no "commuting" in any case, I refuse to be a commuter.

I do plan to have at least 6 months total time here before leaving, if I did leave.

Another option I have: I have a friend at Frontier who can give me a silver bullet when I reach 1500 turbine. But I could also go there from another regional.

I'm also looking at that bonus money though. Especially at Envoy and Endeavor, that's a lot of cash up front to say no to.

FTFY
Couldn't disagree more with your post. Unless you plan on making a career at a regional why is qol so important? Get in, get out right? Conversely I'd suggest picking regional based on 1. Upgrade 2. $$$ 3. Other factors affecting QOL.

A couple of facts that you might want to reconsider. EWR has been a base for XJT for a very long time. However, United has a tendency to move all the regionals around. I would be very cautious at this point about EWR staying a XJT base.

Commutair is getting at least 40 planes from XJT and they have been told they will be getting more of them to be announced in the very near future. XJT still has over 40 planes on property right now that are not covered under any new CPA that has been announced. Commutair has announced they will be opening a EWR base for the 145's the first part of 2017 (only a few months from now).

As a 9 year FO, I tell anyone that is thinking about coming or even staying that has fewer than 7 years at XJT to run as fast as you can. Get on someones seniority list that has a future.

To the OP, you might want to look at CommutAir. They have a nice bonus (not as much as some of the others), they are upgrading as soon as you have the hours, they are expanding, their contract is almost as good as XJT and it is better in some areas. They really do have a "higher pay" than XJT due to upgrades making $64 an hour in one year instead of my $44 an hour at year 9. They have the same CPP that XJT has with United. They are located in EWR and the jets will be there in a couple of months.

Why in Gods name are you still a 9 year FO making $44 an hour?

I would also recommend looking at CommutAir, we have a large number of former XJT'ers that have come since JAN 2016. Those with 1,000 SIC part 121 time have upgraded and got a $15,000 bonus. Plus EWR is Jr on the DHC-8, the EWR ERJ-145 base opens in early 2017 (estimated opening timeline)

But go anywhere that works for you. Sadly XJT is being killed off slowly by SkyWest Inc. Dont ride the sinking ship to the end.

I keep asking myself the same question. I am still 80 away from the most jr CA.

There is a reason I know about the other regionals contracts and bonuses right now. I am looking at the lateral move myself, but 9 years is a lot to throw away.

I just don't see a reason to stay at XJT right now with them parking 2 -3 planes a month and having to get rid of 600 pilots in the next year due to loss of planes. I don't see an upgrade anytime in the future.

The OP was probably told a bunch of crap, like he would be upgrading in 4 years from now. I hope he runs as fast as he can and I will be right behind him.

LOSING. not "loosing."
Why is this so difficult?

I don't think its a bad idea, but would also echo Commutair. Piedmont would also be driveable from EWR and offers the same bonus as Envoy.

Endeavor sounds like a solid plan. Good pay, short upgrade, bases where you live, and a guaranteed interview with Delta. Do you have a degree? I have heard this is the main issue causing people to reveive a TBNT. Maybe an Endeavor guy or gal can fact check that and chime in on the success of their interview program.

I dont think RAH should be very high on the totem pole. Not because its bad, its actually the opposite from what my friends there tell me, your other options simply offer better long term benefits and comparable pay.

This is about the dumbest thing I've read in weeks on here.

I made a lateral move from XJT and saw a 80% pay raise in less than a year because I almost instantly upgraded at my new regional.


Get Seniority/QOL at your career airline, not your stepping stone regional.

If you want to stay in EWR, Commutair seems a no brainer. 145 base going to Jersey next year I hear. Folks I know at C5 seem happy, and solid growth forecast.

If you want to cross over the Hudson and East River, Endeavor is a good option too, but I'm not sure if I could stomach that drive for an extended period!

Now the question of how it would look with a short stay before leaving- it's anyone's guess. If you show you stuck it out for a few months before leaving it might help, but I don't think you can be faulted for wanting to make a move to get a better QOL and seniority. I am not HR, but I think it would be apparent what the reasoning is.

I spent about 2.5 years at Xjt before going to RAH. I'll pm you.

Check your PM.

I would give it at least 6 more months. The CPP is just starting next month and kicks in with more leaving in January. You will begin to see movement. Sucks it's taking so long but I would at least wait and watch until May.

Go interview immediately and get out of there. If there is no future, don't stick around because it 'will look bad'. I did exactly that a year and a half ago and couldn't be happier. Yes I'll have to explain it to mainline interviewers some day but it'll be pretty easy seeing where my old company is headed these days. And from the outside it looks like xjt is headed toward the same path. Move on now, a month of waiting costs you 50-60 pilots that are now senior to you. Worry about explaining in a couple years.

As to where to go? Seems like you are on the right track, except probably not rah, but do what is best for you. We'd love to see you over here at 9e. Good luck with your decision, I know it wasn't an easy one for me, but it sure felt good once I made the jump. Just don't wait too long.

Commutair also has the CPP. Why should anyone stick it out and pay their dues to an airline that appears to be closing their doors? Money talks. Upgrade in a year and make the money and live in base at EWR.

Don't wait. Make the move now and you can simply say that you had apps out and took one job while waiting to get the call for another. You could be in the Nov Commutair class if you want it. Why sit on Reserve for years at XJT with no chance of an upgrade?

Anything can happen. But If anything, out of the big three, United seems to be the less likely to destroy a base with so much history as XJTs EWR base out of the blue.

I don't follow CommutAir happenings very closely, but if I remember correctly, they will be retiring a significant number of Dash-8s in the near future. So there is not much of a long term expansion going on, but rather a fleet replacement that will cause a temporal expansion. Sure, some previews 121 guys will be able to jump the list and upgrade out of training, but the ones that miscalculate the timing could be in for a very bitter ride.

CommutAir's EWR base also has a lot of legacy behind it, I will give you that. But I don't know what to say regarding making that move. That will have to be a purely personal choice up to the OP. I personally see ExpressJet surviving longer than CommutAir.

FWIW, I do believe that seemingly unreasonable lateral moves could give you something else to explain during an interview with a major or LCC.

CommutAir only has 21 dash's. They are getting more than 40 ERJ's (coming from XJT BTW). I think that is still an expansion.

Was it United that took away the DEN and IAD base from XJT?

Doesn't United own part of CommutAir?

Commutair will soon be parking most if not all their Dash. The 145s only have a limited life. Short term Commutair could be a good move for some but your long term is not any better than XJT. XJT will certainly shrink from what they were but don't think they are going away.

What other airplane besides the 145 does XJT fly that gives them the long term advantage?

CommutAir is not parking most, they are parking all the Dash's. And somehow they are still more than doubling the size of their fleet at the same time.

Let me guess, you are a CA at XJT and need some more FO's below you to keep you a CA? :D

Let me guess. You are a recruiter at Commutair?

I made a lateral move out of XJT nearly 2 years ago. Best choice I ever made. I was getting low pay, low flight time (experience), and because of reserve low quality of life. I was getting nothing from XJT... If an interviewer can't understand that for my loyalty the company has to give me something I am not sure I want to work for them. Anyway 2 years down the road I have Captain upgrade, 5X's the pay, 900 hours experience a year, and 15 days off. I never looked back.

Nope. I work for XJT.

seems to be some confusion on the C5 information. C5 was awarded more than the original 40 planes from united, but due to staffing concerns C5 only committed to 40 and options for 20 more in order to make sure that they could staff them all. RUMOR is that they have exercised the additional 20 planes due to our class sizes being above expectations. A year ago our pilot list was about 175ish and today it's around 350-375. We have 5-7 erj's on property and will be taking 2 a month from here on out, although there is talk of upping it to 3 a month so long as we can staff it. United did purchase a non controlling interest in C5. The actual number is not public information, but rumors are that it is about 40-50%. I believe the CPA is 5 years.

Anyone who is wanting a EWR base would be crazy not to at least look at C5. Getting in on the front side of the growth would drastically increase qol, and upgrade potential. Right now upgrade is whenever you hit your 1000 sic, and you will hold a line very quick. Also the CPP is another perk. The first round of guys head over to united in November and the company is sending 10 a quarter after that. Ewr base for the jet has been predicted to open first quarter of next year. There are also rumors that there will be a third base announcement, however I personally don't see that happening anytime in the immediate future.

I have no hard feelings for those here that are very junior jumping ship. I get it! For those that live in one of Commutairs bases then I say go for it. Others need to look at how poorly things have worked out for those that chased quick upgrade by going to Mesa and TSA. MANY have realized their mistake by doing so. Commutair is hands down better than both of those places but realize the growth is not guaranteed and things change almost monthly in this industry.

Best of luck in your decision!

No way dude, if you quit your done. No mainline will touch you. Best plan from here is get 1,000 in the right seat and apply for any and all short upgrade company's. The new norm is one pops up every year now. PSA, CommutAir Go-jet, PDT, Compass, SKW, any company getting close to a 2 year upgrade is only one or to bids away form a really junior bid due to the length of time it takes for an FO to get the time.

You can't quit a company for any reason that you knew or should have known before you got hired. Not doing your homework on a company doesn't count. If a big announcement is made and is a game changer you may could use that, but to just say I was a dumba$$ and now want a change won't cut it.

Why not go fly a 737 with Miami Air or a 767 with Abex? Why another regional?

I really hope you're joking, he can easily say he was misled by recruiters. If that's his only thing he will have no problem getting a mainline job someday.

Isn't Miami Air doing pretty bad?

I can't tell if you're joking or really that misinformed.