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Old 11-03-2016 | 01:56 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
Maybe.

If they can show how much he had to drink and when, based on credit card receipts, etc. they can reasonably extrapolate his BAC backwards.

The usual defense against extrapolation is that recently consumed alcohol had not yet reached the bloodstream at the time of the arrest, but caused BAC to rise after the arrest before the blood test. The defendant can claim that after a short drive home (if the cops hadn't stopped him), he would have been asleep in bed before his BAC exceeded legal levels.

But in this case he can't really claim that the alcohol hadn't reached his blood without admitting to drinking well inside of eight hours!



Company standard is 0.02, so yeah that's going to be hard.
I agree, but in pre trial, if the blood drawn is less than .04, there is no case.. if it goes to trial, than yes extrapolation and evidence will be used against him. All depends on the blood. Hopefully he is already checked into a rehabilitation program.
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Old 11-03-2016 | 03:17 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by CAirBear
Both pilots from the Northwest flight back in the 90s are flying again. Although the CA is over 65 now. The FO is at AA (both figuratively and at the airline).

The FO - Joe Balzer - Wrote a book - Flying Drunk
The CA - Lyle Prouse's book is - Final Approach Northwest Airline Flt 650

Both were terrific reads.
Balzer was the FE.

The FO from that flight is currently a 747 Captain approaching retirement.
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Old 11-03-2016 | 04:07 PM
  #143  
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The article stated he had a BAC of .046 and that he had refused to provide a blood sample until forced to by warrant. Isn't a refusal to submit to a drug/alcohol test grounds for an automatic revocation of certificates? I'm too damn lazy to take a look in the FARs at the moment, but my company has posters all over our crew rooms about drug/alcohol abuse.
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Old 11-03-2016 | 04:15 PM
  #144  
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Yep.....

§61.16 Refusal to submit to an alcohol test or to furnish test results.

A refusal to submit to a test to indicate the percentage by weight of alcohol in the blood, when requested by a law enforcement officer in accordance with §91.17(c) of this chapter, or a refusal to furnish or authorize the release of the test results requested by the Administrator in accordance with §91.17(c) or (d) of this chapter, is grounds for:
(a) Denial of an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part for a period of up to 1 year after the date of that refusal; or
(b) Suspension or revocation of any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part
.........
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Old 11-03-2016 | 05:00 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by MKUltra
I agree, but in pre trial, if the blood drawn is less than .04, there is no case.. if it goes to trial, than yes extrapolation and evidence will be used against him. All depends on the blood. Hopefully he is already checked into a rehabilitation program.
Presumptive limit, testimony based on observations will still get someone under the presumptive limits. Hence "stupid human tricks".
Feds may not get him,but individual states have DUI airplane laws.
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Old 11-04-2016 | 08:02 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Rahlifer
The article stated he had a BAC of .046 and that he had refused to provide a blood sample until forced to by warrant. Isn't a refusal to submit to a drug/alcohol test grounds for an automatic revocation of certificates? I'm too damn lazy to take a look in the FARs at the moment, but my company has posters all over our crew rooms about drug/alcohol abuse.
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
Yep.....

.........

Could be a problem for him, but the stars kind of have to line up for the fed to employ that reg, since it depends on how the state law in question is worded. Or they could just shred his certs and let him try to appeal...
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Old 11-04-2016 | 11:19 AM
  #147  
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The one thing that keeps coming to my mind is that here in the USA, you are innocent until proven guilty. Or at least thats how its supposed to work.

Also in regards to refusal, the person trying to administer the test must have appropriate authority to do so. Just because you pee in a cup for me doesnt constitute a refusal, after all im just some perv on a a forum. So whomever asked must have appropriate creds. Maybe, maybe not.

I tend to think that if his blood test comes back lower than .04, than career wise he is in a salvageable situation. It is my understanding that a blood test is controlling.

Then there is of course evidence issues. If proof can arise that either the breath was not aquired legally or correctly, than a DA would likely toss it out.

Lastly info from some broke local news may have inaccuracies, so collectivly it might be unfair to crucify the guy before all the real facts come out. More than anything it should be a reminder to be safe and responsible while at work or home.
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Old 11-04-2016 | 06:07 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by NeverHome
The one thing that keeps coming to my mind is that here in the USA, you are innocent until proven guilty. Or at least thats how its supposed to work.
True for criminal law.

Not true for admin law, which is how most FAR's are enforced by the FAA. Flying is a privilege, they can take certificate action and fine you with minimal due process (somewhat improved by pilot bill of rights).

Same way states can suspend you DL after a DUI stop, even before the trail.

Originally Posted by NeverHome
Also in regards to refusal, the person trying to administer the test must have appropriate authority to do so. Just because you pee in a cup for me doesnt constitute a refusal, after all im just some perv on a a forum. So whomever asked must have appropriate creds. Maybe, maybe not.
I'm sure they had the creds. The problem for LE is that the refusal must be related to enforcement of state/local laws similar to the FARs in question. Maybe the state has laws that meet that test, maybe they don't.


Originally Posted by NeverHome
I tend to think that if his blood test comes back lower than .04, than career wise he is in a salvageable situation. It is my understanding that a blood test is controlling.
Not if it's three hours later, they can extrapolate back, especially since they have the breath test and will probably find out when, where, and how much he drank.

Originally Posted by NeverHome
Then there is of course evidence issues. If proof can arise that either the breath was not aquired legally or correctly, than a DA would likely toss it out.
Of course, but the FAA may not care and the company certainly won't.
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Old 11-14-2016 | 11:37 AM
  #149  
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Charges were dropped.. but I assume that doesn't mean he's out of the woods as far as his employmen goes.

Intoxication charge against pilot dismissed | Local | rapidcityjournal.com
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Old 11-14-2016 | 12:04 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by SkylaneRG
Charges were dropped.. but I assume that doesn't mean he's out of the woods as far as his employmen goes.

Intoxication charge against pilot dismissed | Local | rapidcityjournal.com
That's what you would expect. With the blood being less than LOQ, limit of quantitation, which is extremely low depending on the testing performed, probably with gas chromatography and mass spec detection. This testing is capable of detection below microgram per deciliter of blood. To put that in perspective, it is common to detect cocaine on dollar bills in the parts per trillion amount, literally picograms.


Any decent employment lawyer would be able to keep the persons job with a blood test below LOQ. The handheld breath test given at the time is useless and a reading of 0.046 is well proven to be inaccurate from these devices. The BAC could have been 0.000 or 0.080 and the machine spits out that number. Further the donor may be diabetic, which often causes people to produce ketones that are expelled from the mouth, and has a very sweet smell much like alcohol. Further ketones will cause a breathalyzer to quantitate a number, as the machine is non specifics and detects all aldehydes, ketones and alcohol groups.

As far as denying to give blood, never ever give blood without a search warrant. Never ever.. Never ever give blood until you have consulted with a lawyer. Never ever give blood unless a second sample is taken at the same time that can be examined at a laboratory of your choice. I would not trust my future life to some laboraties as many of them are incompetent.
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