This has happened before, and sadly, will happen again. These same comments and arguments have all happened on this forum after every event. As someone who has made mistakes in life (some of which were rather large) I refuse to throw stones. I sincerely encourage all keyboard warrior saints to just leave this alone. Nothing can or will be said on an online forum to change what happened...just leave this thread to die and leave the pilot to deal with the consequences and rebuilding of his life and career. Let's just all get back to the business of bashing regionals, speculating on potential announcements/flows, and arguing about which regionals suck less than others. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

Yet many smart people in other professions, doctors, lawyers and such know better too. But somehow a percentage will also make this mistake. Just because we can read and fly a jet doesn't make us perfect or immune to life's problems.

Good.

We don't need 12 hours bottle-to-throttle any more than we need mandatory rest in domicile prior to starting a trip.

We do a much better job of getting the word out (I know plenty of MDs and JDs and they're mostly oblivious).

Our biggest failing if you want to call it that is in helping each other out. In most of these cases another pilot missed an opportunity to intervene, either the day of, or long before.

Blah blah blah... I lost my mother to alcoholism. I understand very well how it manifests itself into an uncontrollable disease that totally consumes you.

The fact of the matter is this guy showed up for work knowing he wasn't fit for duty. He knew he wasn't allowed to be intoxicated. Even though this is common sense, we're taught these things in basic indoc.

Having a disease doesn't excuse his actions. He still still needs to be held accountable.

I don't think anyone is saying that he shouldn't be held accountable. Where did you get that? He made a mistake as many of us do. Lighten up

Speak for yourself, bro. I've never showed for work intoxicated or extremely fatigued. In fact, I called off my last trip because I was running mild fever with body aches- not fit for duty. It's not difficult.

You're implying he should be excused because he might be suffering from a disease. Read your last post that I rebutted.


If you're daughter, wife, loved one's life was taken at the hands of a drunk driver, how would you react if someone told you, "He made a mistake. Lighten up." ?

Why do you think every state has DWI and DUI laws with zero tolerance? I'm afraid you don't realize how serious this matter is.

Twelve hours is not an ALPA rule. Each airline makes its own policy concerning this. For example, my ALPA airline has an 8 hour policy. Also, it's with the help of ALPA that HIMS exists and is funded every year. Your welcome.

Horizon is 10 hours and not on the same calendar day. Sucks when you arrive at the hotel at 12:01AM and just having a beer can get you fired if caught/ratted on...even if your next show time isn't till 5pm

Yep, you try to push the 8 to 12, or tell us we can't take a water bottle off the plane, we will have pitchforks and a lynch mob in the crew room within an hour.

However, if all you want to do is up the block hours flown during the month of December and send a nice email telling us how important operation credibility is right now, and we better not call of sick when we are CN/PN'ed flying over the holidays, then we will just put our shoulder to the wheel and keep our mouths shut. Now is not the time to discuss how we have kept picking up flying hours from the other airlines over the past year, all while the attrition picks up and training is busting at the seems so much, we need to bypass seniority when awarding upgrades. Just don't have any alcohol on your breath when you call in faigued after working 95 hours plus for the past couple years. At least you will be able to spend more time with the family.

I had waited so long to see the pilot group come together over an issue that really mattered. Too bad more time at home with the families is not going to be that issue. It's really too bad. And best of luck to my fellow aviator. I am in your corner hoping for an acceptable outcome.

Apparently Percocet is OK... But generally speaking flushing any medicine into our water system is not the best option. Please check below:

Disposal of Unused Medicines: What You Should Know

I use the 12 hr rule and I had ONE beer at a pub near an FAA building. And I insisted the waitress take the empty glass away immediately for appearance sake while I finished watching the game. For all of those who are feeling sorry for this guy, just think if your wife, daughter or parents were on that flight and there was an incident? Would you be so understanding then? Facts are; it makes the Regional Pilot group look bad and the fact that Legacies have done it doesn't make it better.

But, This guy will probably be at United in 6 months, while the rest of us keep our nose clean and will never see the right seat at a Legacy!!!

[QUOTE=Whatmeworry;2232223]I use the 12 hr rule and I had ONE beer at a pub near an FAA building. And I insisted the waitress take the empty glass away immediately for appearance sake while I finished watching the game. For all of those who are feeling sorry for this guy, just think if your wife, daughter or parents were on that flight and there was an incident? Would you be so understanding then? Facts are; it makes the Regional Pilot group look bad and the fact that Legacies have done it doesn't make it better.

Insisted the waitress to take your empty glass? Good grief, one beer outside of your 12 hour window and you're paranoid about a empty glass? And what the heck does your proximity of a FAA building have to do with this? There will screw ups in every profession.

I'd like to pile on with the no sympathy camp. I think the greatest example used so far is the drunk driving accident. There isn't a single person I've talked to who says, "yeah, that guy killed an entire family, but can you imagine pain he is going through?" He made that decision when he was drunk and most influenced by the disease, so if there was a time to be sympathetic, that is the one. Yet, everyone would see him hanged in the center of town.

Now, let's talk about the pilot. For all intents and purposes, unless you just stopped drinking an hour ago, you're going to wake up and KNOW that you are still drunk. You may not have had a choice the night before when you drank into your 8 hours because the bug had its claws in you. At this point, you have just one conscious choice to make. Do I show up for work and put lives at risk or do I just call in sick? Any single person who chooses A, well, I have zero sympathy for you. You deserve every bit of public shaming you get. The guy needs help, for sure and I hope he gets it. Unfortunately for him, he didn't make a "mistake," but a conscious choice to put lives in danger.

A lot of keyboard warriors on here. I wonder what they all said in their interviews when they got the "captain shows up drunk/what do" question. I stand by he needs to get help, he is only human. Seems a lot of people would rather just ruin someone's life because, well it ain't them. What If you were the one in cuffs. How would you want to be treated and and what kind of help would you want. Real easy to say throw him in jail and watch his life burn away. It's ok to have a beer or even two on a long overnight. Just don't get blackout drunk and stumble back to the comfort inn and make a scene. Don't forgot, hotel staff knows who you are and who you work for. Have a beer and be responsible about it.

Not a single person here suggested they turn him in to the police. The "captain shows up drunk" statement is completely irrelevant. He did that to himself. And you're right, when I see a guy in handcuffs on the side of the road at a DUI checkpoint, I'm GLAD he got caught before he killed someone. There are consequences for your actions. If you try to drive a car or fly an airplane under the influence, you get to go to jail. His coworkers didn't do him a favor by letting him get on the hotel bus but it's not their responsibility to ensure he isn't drunk. He made a conscious decision to put on his uniform drunk and hope no one caught him when he could have EASILY called in sick.

Makes me wonder if any other member of the crew noticed before they left the hotel and didn't say anything?

Makes you wonder a lot of things. Who told the police, hotel employees, TSA, maybe even the captain if it was one of those times where he was clearly drunk and kept giving him opportunities to call off? Even though the latter isn't likely. How drunk was he? Wasted or just barely above .04? Did he not follow the 8 hours to FDP? Too many things to not know and that's why I feel people shouldn't throw stones. The guy could have done everything short of breathalyzing himself before he left and felt fine and adhered to the legal time limits.

Alcohol is metabolized at approximately .015 per hour. That means when he stopped drinking, if he JUST cleared .04, his BAC was .17. I would think that even a .05 or .06, he would still feel woozy.

And I believe they said an airport official called the police, so probably TSA.

I agree, he made the decision to do that and clearly I would never advocate drinking and flying. I guess what I'm saying is there needs to be a better effort company wise to stop these people before ever showing up to the airport. And more training to get someone to call out. The person might have a serious problem and his Fellow pilot might be there person who finally gets him the help he needs before he shows up like the guys in 1990 with northwest airlines on Fargo. If someone wants to fly drunk; then yeah. They deserve to go to jail. What I guess I was trying to say is. More help and better situational awareness at the hotel. Stop it before it happens.

[QUOTE=prex8390;2232257]A lot of keyboard warriors on here. I wonder what they all said in their interviews when they got the "captain shows up drunk/what do" question.



I told the interview panel everything they wanted to hear in order to get the job.
Worked like a charm.

Ohhh, the humanity!! Not another Tub Stacking Administration warrior.
Had one of these mouth breathers get in every crew members' face while going through security in hopes of becoming a hero.
Heroic ambition quickly turned into utter embarrassment when I offered him some mints.
Crawl back into your hole.
Not saying that the pilot shouldn't have been caught, just not by a tub stacker who isn't allowed to wear a football helmet with earmuffs while at "work" because it isn't part of their uniform.

What airlines have 12 hours?

XJT is 8.

the public is outraged to find out that such a prestigious company like Delta airlines would ever employ such an irresponsible individual as a pilot. Oh wait

I've worked at 3 ALPA carriers and 2 non-ALPA. The non-ALPA carriers were 12 hours and the ALPA carriers were 8.

Worked at a Teamster airline and at an ALPA carrier now. Both were 12.

A union has just as much to do with drinking restrctions as it does with the format of dispatch releases or the color of your uniform...in other words, it's complete irrelevant.

You've worked at 5 companies. What section of the contract is alcohol consumption addressed?

Compass -- an ALPA carrier -- has a 12-hour rule.

This is correct.

What a union does have a great deal to do with is what happens if you do something wrong, or are accused of doing something wrong. That is why most people do not mind paying union dues. It is simply insurance.

The union is also responsible for things like KCM, HIMS, and all of the legislation that the non-union members still get the benefit of but did not have to pay for.

What does the collective bargaining agent for an airline have to do with their alcohol policy? ALPA, SWAPA, APA, Teamsters, et al have zero say in what the company develops in their FAA accepted FOM about alcohol consumption.

Four ALPA carriers and 2 were 12, 2 were 8. So what? I've never seen it in the PWA.

I would get very firmly behind an initiative to cap hours at 75-80/month (you can always bid up voluntarily), and have a contractual staffing ratio. I'd go for that at the expense of raises (and bonuses tied to how well the company/industry/economy are doing).

You can certainly influence the company's decision-making when they're considering restrictions above and beyond the FARs. I've seen it happen at least once...

Not much the company can do, they're not going to be there for the early show at the outstation. Only PILOTS can serve as the last line of defense.

And there has been plenty of info pushed, nobody can claim they haven't gotten the word on this, especially a ten-year dude at SKW. They talk about it pretty much every year at recurrent.

No, I'm afraid I understand exactly how serious this mater is. The system worked. He was not permitted to work. And hopefully he can get the help he needs. Just as someone who received a dui. They lose their license, possibly their job, and not to mention a whole host of financial and personal problems. But after some hard work they can correct all that and become a better person. You make it sound like he should never be given another chance?

Yes, innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, people are responsible for their own actions.

But...

I was impressed by the instructors in SKW ground school hammering home the point, we as a crew need to keep the bad actor away from the plane. That other pilot and maybe even the FA's ought to be explaining why they didn't interdict this situation at bus time.

The guy from Harrisburg wasn't in uniform. He just had an unfortunate American Pie type story that could have happened to anyone.

[IMG]http://s14.postimg.org/gylfiq2vx/Den..._in_Flight.jpg[/IMG]

Could have happened to anyone? Uhh...pretty sure that won't happen to 99.9995% of us on overnights. And its not something that "happened" "to" him. It was something he did. Getting mugged while walking back to the hotel from the grocery store happens to you. Getting drunk, Breaking into a fire chiefs car while naked with a hard on in the middle of the woods doesn't happen to you.

Ppl are jumping to the conclusion that he's a alcoholic, he might just have had too much of a good time that night